Author Topic: Police State - Official Thread  (Read 1149824 times)

Dos Equis

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #200 on: May 27, 2011, 11:26:27 AM »

AGAIN - DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND WHY THE AVERAGE PERSON HATES THE POLICE NOW?   



I don't think the average person hates the police.  It's usually people who have had bad experiences with the police who "hate" them. 

Soul Crusher

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #201 on: May 27, 2011, 11:30:28 AM »
I don't think the average person hates the police.  It's usually people who have had bad experiences with the police who "hate" them. 


Not where I live for sure.    Did you watch the video I posted?   

Dos Equis

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #202 on: May 27, 2011, 11:33:22 AM »

Not where I live for sure.    Did you watch the video I posted?   

Which one? 

Soul Crusher

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #203 on: May 27, 2011, 11:34:53 AM »
Which one? 

The one of the ex-marine getting killed.   Short of an active hostage situation or fugitive wanted for capital murder - I dont see how anyone condones that.     

Dos Equis

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #204 on: May 27, 2011, 11:36:27 AM »
The one of the ex-marine getting killed.   Short of an active hostage situation or fugitive wanted for capital murder - I dont see how anyone condones that.     

You'll have to link me.  You posted a number of videos in this thread. 

Soul Crusher

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #205 on: May 27, 2011, 11:38:02 AM »
Here is the video.

Total bullshit.

http://azstarnet.com/online/video/vmix_79f8c3e2-8804-11e0-a06f-001cc4c002e0.html



I hope these cpps and dupnick go away a long time.   Total nonsense. 




BUMP

Dos Equis

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #206 on: May 27, 2011, 11:41:38 AM »
BUMP

Thanks.  How could you possibly draw any conclusions based on that 1:17 minute clip?  Impossible for me to say whether they acted reasonably or not. 

Why was the SWAT team called?  What happened when they entered the home? 

Soul Crusher

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #207 on: May 27, 2011, 11:41:50 AM »

Soul Crusher

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #208 on: May 27, 2011, 11:42:54 AM »
Thanks.  How could you possibly draw any conclusions based on that 1:17 minute clip?  Impossible for me to say whether they acted reasonably or not. 

Why was the SWAT team called?  What happened when they entered the home? 

Very easily - SWAT should not have been there in the first place and is signs of a growing police state. 

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #209 on: May 27, 2011, 11:44:09 AM »

Dos Equis

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #210 on: May 27, 2011, 11:52:47 AM »
Very easily - SWAT should not have been there in the first place and is signs of a growing police state. 

Sounds like they had the right to be there if they had a warrant.  A judge must have signed off on it.  Police obtaining and executing a warrant isn't evidence of a police state. 

I watched the second clip.  Still not enough information.  The wife saw the SWAT team.  Pretty obvious it wasn't a home invasion.  He shouldn't have pointed a rifle at armed men with "SWAT" signs all over the place.  It's a tragedy that this guy was killed, but I would have shot him too if he pointed a gun at me. 

Dos Equis

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #211 on: May 27, 2011, 11:57:09 AM »
Why do you feel that it's OK for the police to point a gun at you, but you not to point one back?

If the police knock on my door with search warrant and guns drawn, I will not be stupid enough to point a rifle at them.  That's essentially suicide by cop. 

If I'm a cop with a search warrant and someone points a gun at me, I would shoot them in a heartbeat.  Sounds like they followed proper use of force guidelines.  You don't wait for someone to pull the trigger before you fire. 

Soul Crusher

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #212 on: May 27, 2011, 11:57:29 AM »
Sounds like they had the right to be there if they had a warrant.  A judge must have signed off on it.  Police obtaining and executing a warrant isn't evidence of a police state. 

I watched the second clip.  Still not enough information.  The wife saw the SWAT team.  Pretty obvious it wasn't a home invasion.  He shouldn't have pointed a rifle at armed men with "SWAT" signs all over the place.  It's a tragedy that this guy was killed, but I would have shot him too if he pointed a gun at me. 


Again - its the police state that enables this shit in the first place!   Why couldnt they get this guy at work or in his car and then done the warrant?   Mind you there were no drugs in the house.  

Again - without an active hostage situation or horrific crime in prgress like terrr event or something of that nature - why would SWAT be employed for this?  

ts utterly absurd.  
 

Soul Crusher

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #213 on: May 27, 2011, 11:59:51 AM »
If the police knock on my door with search warrant and guns drawn, I will not be stupid enough to point a rifle at them.  That's essentially suicide by cop. 

If I'm a cop with a search warrant and someone points a gun at me, I would shoot them in a heartbeat.  Sounds like they followed proper use of force guidelines.  You don't wait for someone to pull the trigger before you fire. 

Oh yeah, cause the really knocked and waited for someone to come downstairs and repond on that.   again - they were in an unmarked car, no uniformofficers, all dressed like commandos in a way no one would know WTF is going on.   

This is the gestapo plain and simple. 

And again - lets say he did have drugs -does that justify such reckless tactics in a residential hood in the first place?   

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #214 on: May 27, 2011, 12:03:17 PM »
So what you're really saying is that if this were WW2 and the gestapo showed up, you'd just go willingly?

You do realize that this is exactly how that shit started.




What gets me is that is that this was for a general search warrant, not even an arrest warrant!    

Think about that - this guy was not even accused of a crime in the first place and they sent the gestapo to his house over what most likely was a tip from a CI tryig to avoid prosecution ad save his own ass and had motive to supply bullshit info to the cops. 

This s where I turn all lib on some stuff - the war on drugs does not justify this crap. 
    


Dos Equis

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #215 on: May 27, 2011, 12:04:47 PM »

Again - its the police state that enables this shit in the first place!   Why couldnt they get this guy at work or in his car and then done the warrant?   Mind you there were no drugs in the house.  

Again - without an active hostage situation or horrific crime in prgress like terrr event or something of that nature - why would SWAT be employed for this?  

ts utterly absurd.  
 

A police state would be the police busting down the door without a warrant.  Or a situation like Amadou Diallo.  

I don't have a problem with cops who use the system to do their job.  If they had no basis to search the guy's house, the judge wouldn't have given them a warrant (unless they lied to get to the warrant).  

And we can't judge whether their search of the house was reasonable based on what they find or don't find after the search is over.  I think we have to look at whatever information they had when they got the warrant to determine whether it was appropriate, followed by whether they followed proper use of force guidelines for their department.  

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #216 on: May 27, 2011, 12:07:35 PM »
A police state would be the police busting down the door without a warrant.  Or a situation like Amadou Diallo.  

I don't have a problem with cops who use the system to do their job.  If they had no basis to search the guy's house, the judge wouldn't have given them a warrant (unless they lied to get to the warrant).  

And we can't judge whether their search of the house was reasonable based on what they find or don't find after the search is over.  I think we have to look at whatever information they had when they got the warrant to determine whether it was appropriate, followed by whether they followed proper use of force guidelines for their department.  


I'm not arguing cops showing up to execute to do a search warrant.  Im saying you dont send Spec Ops decked out for combat for stuff like this, which used to be done by uniform officers.       

Agnostic007

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #217 on: May 27, 2011, 12:07:44 PM »
How did know they were police?  They were in an unmarked vehicle and dressed like commandos.    Again - this goes to even something more basic - where do the police think its ok to do this for the sole purpose of retrieving some drugs with such a high liklihood of physical harm and danger to others?   
   

Total bullshit.   The war on drugs, and I dont or have ever used drugs in any form, is nothing but a massive scam on the taxpayer and does nothing but keep far too many govt workers employed at a tremendous cost to the taxpayer. 

Even if he did have marijuana in his house - does that justify this crap?   In a police state run by thug cops - yes of course they will justify anything.   

This whole swat team nonseseis pure bullshit.   Were they trying to apprehend a fugitive for murder?   Responding to a hostage situation? Responding to a violent crime in progress like a violtent home invasion? 

No.  These wannabes were all jacked up to retrieve some drugs and killed a former marine and now two kids are without a father. 



AGAIN - DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND WHY THE AVERAGE PERSON HATES THE POLICE NOW?   



The average person likes the police. I didn't know we were arguing what the average citizen thought. Recent polls in my city show a better than 80% positive response to the question "Do you think the police are doing a good job?"

I'm discussing this particular incident. Anybody above the age of 6 can recognize a swat team outside their window. You are wanting me to suspend logic and believe that she actually thought, with the sirens, the knock, the announcement of police, the "POLICE"  on the uniforms and having movies and television shows for the last 20 yrs showing what SWAT looks like she decided she must be being invaded by commando troops? Riiiiiight.

Reports say the suspect was "also was involved in drug smuggling, strong-armed robberies and human smuggling"

Let me play you for just a second and use your ability to jump to conclusions ...


Here is what must have happened..

Suspect is a drug dealer who also was a suspect in home invasions and human smuggling. He had several guns and body armor along with an assault rifle. What innocent person owns body armor? The military doesn't let you keep theirs when you leave.. No, people who commit home invasions have lots of guns and body armor.

Wife spotted what was obviously police outside the house. She's like "oh shit, did we get rid of the evidence already? Did we forget anything?" She yells to hubby "Baby, the police are outside with helmets and guns and looks like they want to come in!"

Hubby, waking up says "Shit! the pigs are here!" no way I'm going down without a fight and grabs his AR-15 and confronts them forgetting the safety is on because he's half asleep. As he shouts out to come and get some he is surprised to find its on safe. In the meantime the SWAT officers open up on the obvious threat..

NOW we are discussing it on an even playing field...  

When you want to discuss the issue rationally, give me a shout..

Dos Equis

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #218 on: May 27, 2011, 12:09:02 PM »
So what you're really saying is that if this were WW2 and the gestapo showed up, you'd just go willingly?

You do realize that this is exactly how that shit started.



No, I'm saying what I said:  if SWAT shows up at my house with guns drawn, I will not be stupid enough to point a rifle at them.  

This is not WWII.  There is no gestapo.  

Not sure what you mean by how this got started?  You mean this guy getting shot?  

Agnostic007

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #219 on: May 27, 2011, 12:09:35 PM »

I'm not arguing cops showing up to execute to do a search warrant.  Im saying you dont send Spec Ops decked out for combat for stuff like this, which used to be done by uniform officers.       
Yes, until a large number of uniform cops kept getting killed... now when there is a potential and articulable threat of violence SWAT, with better training and equipment does it. Makes perfect sense ..  

Agnostic007

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #220 on: May 27, 2011, 12:10:18 PM »
A police state would be the police busting down the door without a warrant.  Or a situation like Amadou Diallo.  

I don't have a problem with cops who use the system to do their job.  If they had no basis to search the guy's house, the judge wouldn't have given them a warrant (unless they lied to get to the warrant).  

And we can't judge whether their search of the house was reasonable based on what they find or don't find after the search is over.  I think we have to look at whatever information they had when they got the warrant to determine whether it was appropriate, followed by whether they followed proper use of force guidelines for their department.  

exactly

Dos Equis

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #221 on: May 27, 2011, 12:11:32 PM »

I'm not arguing cops showing up to execute to do a search warrant.  Im saying you dont send Spec Ops decked out for combat for stuff like this, which used to be done by uniform officers.       

Why not?  If they suspect the person is armed, the police should do whatever they can to protect themselves. 

Agnostic007

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #222 on: May 27, 2011, 12:13:16 PM »
Why not?  If they suspect the person is armed, the police should do whatever they can to protect themselves. 

X2

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #223 on: May 27, 2011, 12:17:47 PM »
Yes, until a large number of uniform cops kept getting killed... now when there is a potential and articulable threat of violence SWAT, with better training and equipment does it. Makes perfect sense ..  

Sorry - you signed up for the job.  You knew exactly what you were getting in to and "officer safety" IMHO is not nearly as important as the constitution and the presumption of innonence of people  

Again - "reports"  ? ? ?    By who?  

And if there were sufficient reports  to warrant an arrest, why not go for an arrest warrant and take the guy at work or in his car instead of playing Navy Seal?  

Bro - you may be a good cop, but you are like 99% i have ever met, you will defend  almost anything othe cops do, even when it means innocent people getting killed like this ex marine who did two tours in Iraq.  

 

     "Officer safety" should not mean people having to give up their rights just because the "bravest" all of a sudden can't deal with  

Soul Crusher

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Re: Police State - Official Thread
« Reply #224 on: May 27, 2011, 12:18:28 PM »
Why not?  If they suspect the person is armed, the police should do whatever they can to protect themselves. 

For real?   Beach  - the why not just shoot everyone first?