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Author Topic: There is only one God, in three persons: Father, Son(Jesus) and Holy Spirit  (Read 18435 times)
a_ahmed
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« Reply #175 on: December 31, 2012, 07:57:45 PM »

I am actually laughing really hard looking at this...



Seriously.. with all due respect you have to be demented to believe in this... Which is it?

I like to stick to the historical facts which is... well guess what? The trinity was invented hundreds of years after Jesus. And since it's man made non-sense from a pagan period in roman times, it totally makes sense that it makes no sense.

God does not confuse, stupid men who lie against God do. Satan's goal is to mislead and misguide people away from God's simple truth. This is satan's handy work at it's finest.

God=God=1

End of story.

You guys said the 'councils dont matter' but yes they do matter, because they are the ones that decided what it IS to be a christian WHO Jesus was, who God is, etc... based on their whims.

As a result for CENTURIES non trinitiarians were hunted down and persecuted, considered heretics for not worshipping the trinity and worshipping God alone.
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« Reply #176 on: December 31, 2012, 08:05:14 PM »

I am actually laughing really hard looking at this...



Seriously.. with all due respect you have to be demented to believe in this... Which is it?

I like to stick to the historical facts which is... well guess what? The trinity was invented hundreds of years after Jesus.

You guys said the 'councils dont matter' but yes they do matter, because they are the ones that decided what it IS to be a christian WHO Jesus was, who God is, etc... based on their whims.

Look, stupid.  You have no idea what I believe.  Here, let me tell you what I believe about your filthy faith.  Mohammed was a lover of swine, other men's women and dong.

By the way that is a play on words from the phrase, "Wine, women and song". 

I am just tired of your crap so I am giving some back to you in the form of a written beating.  Stupid.  And no my little whiner, I am not "angry" with you. 
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« Reply #177 on: December 31, 2012, 08:53:15 PM »

Look, stupid.  You have no idea what I believe.  Here, let me tell you what I believe about your filthy faith.  Mohammed was a lover of swine, other men's women and dong.

By the way that is a play on words from the phrase, "Wine, women and song". 

I am just tired of your crap so I am giving some back to you in the form of a written beating.  Stupid.  And no my little whiner, I am not "angry" with you. 


HAHAHA!!! scott is pissed! the truth hurts him like a punch to the nose!

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a_ahmed
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« Reply #178 on: December 31, 2012, 10:23:40 PM »

Jay P. Green’s Classic Bible Dictionary says about the word trinity, "This is not itself a Biblical term, but was a term coined by Tertullian to refer to this whole concept under one word" (p. 483). The Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature says forthrightly, "Respecting the manner in which the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit make one G-d, the Scripture teaches nothing, since the subject is of such a nature as not to admit of its being explained to us" ("Trinity," p. 553).





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« Reply #179 on: December 31, 2012, 10:25:14 PM »












The seed planters of the anti-christ.
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #180 on: December 31, 2012, 10:32:10 PM »



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« Reply #181 on: January 01, 2013, 09:45:34 AM »

Look, stupid.  You have no idea what I believe.  Here, let me tell you what I believe about your filthy faith.  Mohammed was a lover of swine, other men's women and dong.

By the way that is a play on words from the phrase, "Wine, women and song". 

I am just tired of your crap so I am giving some back to you in the form of a written beating.  Stupid.  And no my little whiner, I am not "angry" with you. 
So you belive in Islam right?  I find the story of Muhammad just as laughable.
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« Reply #182 on: January 01, 2013, 10:33:57 AM »


HAHAHA!!! scott is pissed! the truth hurts him like a punch to the nose!



TrueBB93,

Will you please kindly address this, in your own words?


Watch this man. the question isnt wither christianity is monotheistic or not, but rather MODERN christians do not follow the orders of GOD. Muslim and Jews pray in identical ways, the old christians(in jesus time) did the same, yet almost NO chrsitians do so today, infact most dont even know about it! I dont want to offend but the original christians DIDNT SAY JESUS DIED FOR THIER SINS!

Matthew 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 10:11
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

John 11:50-52
50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”
51 He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation,
52 and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.

Romans 4:25
He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

1 Corinthians 15:3
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

1 Thessalonians 5:9-10
9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #183 on: January 01, 2013, 11:37:09 AM »

Jay P. Green’s Classic Bible Dictionary says about the word trinity, "This is not itself a Biblical term, but was a term coined by Tertullian to refer to this whole concept under one word" (p. 483). The Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature says forthrightly, "Respecting the manner in which the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit make one G-d, the Scripture teaches nothing, since the subject is of such a nature as not to admit of its being explained to us" ("Trinity," p. 553).

This authority is not alone in its insight. Another explains that the whole notion of a Trinity emerged from heated disagreement and dispute: "The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies… The council of Nicaea in 325 stated the crucial formula for that doctrine in its confession that the ‘Son is of the same substance…as the Father,’ even though it said very little about the Holy Spirit…By the end of the 4th century…the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since" (Encyclopaedia Britannica, Trinity).




How reliable can anything you say be?



The trinity is a false doctrine that was invented hundreds of years after Jesus.

Even stories like the prostitute and casting of the sin and man without sin, that was added in around 4th century as well. It's not a true story, Jesus did not say that.

Why? To reinforce this whole non-sense about abandoning God's law, that you can do whatever you want and still be 'saved', etc...


Lastly all the stories in the NT are so non-credible when it comes to consistency. I already posted a video by a Christian scholar addressing these issues. How the stories don't add up, contradict each other, the accounts contradict each other.

Jesus and the other characters are claimed to say one thing or another in one place but contradict themselves in another.

How can one argue on the basis of anything with such inconsistencies, fabrications and manipulations?


What we need to tackle is the root cause of the problem and that is the false invented belief in the trinity which was forged 400 years after Jesus (pbuh). People were killed to enforce this false belief for centuries.
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« Reply #184 on: January 02, 2013, 10:20:50 AM »

Jay P. Green’s Classic Bible Dictionary says about the word trinity, "This is not itself a Biblical term, but was a term coined by Tertullian to refer to this whole concept under one word" (p. 483). The Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature says forthrightly, "Respecting the manner in which the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit make one G-d, the Scripture teaches nothing, since the subject is of such a nature as not to admit of its being explained to us" ("Trinity," p. 553).

This authority is not alone in its insight. Another explains that the whole notion of a Trinity emerged from heated disagreement and dispute: "The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies… The council of Nicaea in 325 stated the crucial formula for that doctrine in its confession that the ‘Son is of the same substance…as the Father,’ even though it said very little about the Holy Spirit…By the end of the 4th century…the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since" (Encyclopaedia Britannica, Trinity).




How reliable can anything you say be?



The trinity is a false doctrine that was invented hundreds of years after Jesus.

Even stories like the prostitute and casting of the sin and man without sin, that was added in around 4th century as well. It's not a true story, Jesus did not say that.

Why? To reinforce this whole non-sense about abandoning God's law, that you can do whatever you want and still be 'saved', etc...


Lastly all the stories in the NT are so non-credible when it comes to consistency. I already posted a video by a Christian scholar addressing these issues. How the stories don't add up, contradict each other, the accounts contradict each other.

Jesus and the other characters are claimed to say one thing or another in one place but contradict themselves in another.

How can one argue on the basis of anything with such inconsistencies, fabrications and manipulations?


What we need to tackle is the root cause of the problem and that is the false invented belief in the trinity which was forged 400 years after Jesus (pbuh). People were killed to enforce this false belief for centuries.
Your reference does not refute the trinity it anyway whatsoever, it just affirms that the term "trinity" was later coined in reference to the biblical concept found in scripture (all the way back to the earliest known manuscripts).  The biblical reality of God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit has been preached by the earliest Christians (Peter, Timothy, John, Mary, Paul, etc...) days after Christ's crucifixion, death, resurrection and ascension.  The early Christians affirming the message of Christ were not 3rd and 4th century church councils, they were the disciples and apostles that lived with and learned from our God, Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  Christians know the term "trinity" is not found in scripture and was coined by man, but God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit have been there from the beginning.  

Again, Islam must deny the trinity, the resurrection of Christ and salvation through Christ or Islam crumbles....it can't stand on it's own!!  If Christianity is not somehow denied and beaten down then Islam is wrong.  
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« Reply #185 on: January 02, 2013, 10:28:28 AM »

Your reference does not refute the trinity it anyway whatsoever, it just affirms that the term "trinity" was later coined in reference to the biblical concept found in scripture (all the way back to the earliest known manuscripts).  The biblical reality of God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit had been preached by the earliest Christians (Peter, Timothy, John, Mary, Paul, etc...) days after Christ's crucifixion, death, resurrection and ascension.  The early Christians affirming the message of Christ were not 3rd and 4th century church councils, they were the disciples and apostles that lived with and learned from our God, Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  Christians know the term "trinity" is not found in scripture and was coined by man, but God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit have been there from the beginning.  

Again, Islam must deny the trinity, the resurrection of Christ and salvation through Christ or Islam crumbles....it can't stand on it's own!!  If Christianity is not somehow denied and beaten down Islam is wrong.  


the whole idea and purpose of islam- worship ONE GOD and give God no partners(like a son) or rivals/associates. remember islam dosent deny the teachings of jesus! only the idea he is a "son" and that he died for YOUR sins.

its our duty as muslims to deny not just Trinity but anyone who is a polyhthiest or says God has kids, family ...ect.
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« Reply #186 on: January 02, 2013, 10:36:41 AM »

Are you blind in what I copy pasted from the two encyclopedias?

The trinity doctrine in its full form was not even finalized until around 400 years after. The first time it was even debated and finalized was ultimately in the council of nicea and at that time the holy spirit was not a discussion point much it was about who is jesus and who is God.
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« Reply #187 on: January 02, 2013, 12:12:56 PM »

the whole idea and purpose of islam- worship ONE GOD and give God no partners(like a son) or rivals/associates. remember islam dosent deny the teachings of jesus! only the idea he is a "son" and that he died for YOUR sins.

its our duty as muslims to deny not just Trinity but anyone who is a polyhthiest or says God has kids, family ...ect.

TrueBB93,

Will you please kindly address this, in your own words?


Watch this man. the question isnt wither christianity is monotheistic or not, but rather MODERN christians do not follow the orders of GOD. Muslim and Jews pray in identical ways, the old christians(in jesus time) did the same, yet almost NO chrsitians do so today, infact most dont even know about it! I dont want to offend but the original christians DIDNT SAY JESUS DIED FOR THIER SINS!

Matthew 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 10:11
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

John 11:50-52
50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”
51 He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation,
52 and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.

Romans 4:25
He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

1 Corinthians 15:3
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

1 Thessalonians 5:9-10
9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
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« Reply #188 on: January 02, 2013, 01:17:47 PM »

TrueBB93,

Will you please kindly address this, in your own words?

Matthew 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 10:11
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

John 11:50-52
50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”
51 He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation,
52 and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.

Romans 4:25
He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

1 Corinthians 15:3
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

1 Thessalonians 5:9-10
9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

sure but before I do I must add somthing important: In the other thread I asked you guys whiter you thought the Bible is "word for word" the word of God, you guys answered No, but inspired by God.

the reason I point this out is very important. I(and all other muslims) believe in ALL the books, hence why the Quran refers to you guys(christians) as "people of the book"(people who have been revealed the truth), except we believe in the original version(which contained 100% truth), not the modern day bible( a blend of truth and falsehoods)

the Bible that people read today seeing as there many many diffrent versions, with certain verses being taken out, and others put in(go to a christian scholar and ask him, if you dont believe me). So the Bible is no longer 100% the word of God it once was. hence a verse will hints at the idea of Jesus(pbuh) dying for you sins or being the son of God is somthing added later.

So the statement I said "the orignal followers of jesus didnt say jesus died for there sins" is somthing which can be proved through history  (how the follows of jesus prayed like jews at syangoues 300 years AFTER jesus left this world and considerd jesuses departure from earth nothing like you guys do in the sense of him being sacrificed). and the opposite(your side of the arugment of him dying for you sins) cannot be proven any other way except using the modern day bible, the same bible why was edited and isnt 100% word of God which even chrisitans admit(hence why they say inspired by God rather then "word for word the word" of God). So  verses which say things like " died for us" is somthing put into the bible many many years later and nothing somthing original.

hope I answered you question Loco, and sorry if I offended you in anyway.
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« Reply #189 on: January 02, 2013, 02:21:24 PM »

You say ask scholars if we do not believe you that the Bible has been changed.,

OK now let me explain something to you and remember I have studied history at the university level and everything I say here is 100% right.

Every theologian on the planet presented this argument that you are presenting and everyone believed it including Christians even Pastors and priests. OK then boooooom the dead sea scrolls where discover in 1948 in Qumran a then region of Palestine now known as the west bank.  Most scrolls where written on papyrus, now these scroll contained half of the old Testament and extra Biblical works as well, unfortunately nothing from the new Testament was there but that is because they date back Before Christ.

Now my point is that half the old Testament books that were found where identical with our modern Bible with the exception 2 or 3 books and they are just very ,minor differences but nothing conflicting. Then something else happened, more discoveries were found in the following 8 years and the rest of the old Testament books were also found except the book of Esther. Anyhow these too where identical copies of the KJ version Bible that is circulating today but of course not written in English but Aramaic, Greek, Hebrew and even several other languages.

Now take the Minority and the majority text from all manuscript that were used to translate The Bible from Hebrew-Greek to English and the words are identical to those of the dead sea scroll.

So this is what we know for certain is that the Old Testament has not been changed at all in the last 2000 years and scholars have all agreed but people do not know this so they continue to claim falsely that the word in the text have changed through time as you just did but nothing can be further from the truth and university theologians have already accepted this as fact concerning the old Testament.

Now of course since we have not found the new Testament work from that time period we have nothing to compare the writtings in modern day Bibles (New Testament) to anything old so of course it is convenient for someone like you to claim that the words have been changed but in reality since there is no real work to compare it too then it is just speculation on your part in the same manner that it was with theologians prior to the findings of the dead sea scrolls.

But here is what I predict that one day we will find 2nd century manuscripts from the New Testament and the same outcome that took place with dead sea scrolls will take place and this argument you are suggestting will be put to rest once and for all.
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« Reply #190 on: January 02, 2013, 02:32:47 PM »

We are talking about the new testament. Christian scholars not Muslim scholars are the ones pointing out how the words of Jesus were manipulated, how stories were added and removed to amplify the trinitarian doctrine, etc... How as the books were written and rewritten the stories were amplified and as can be seen in different accounts of the books representing supposedly same events.

And lastly don't forget how long ago was Moses (pbuh)? Further than any of these written works, but that's another topic of it's own. We are talking about the new testament, Jesus (pbuh) and the manipulations that have occured. Don't forget the Jews were held by Nebuchadnezzar and that they even lost their language, way of life, etc... up to a point amongst other things.

Much of the "jewish magic", kabala etc... it has no orgins in the original revelations and message but things they picked up from the Babylonians for instance. Again another discussion all together but just making a point.

In particular when dealing with the invented trinitarian doctrine, it was formulated ultimately 400 years after Jesus... and first began to take shape from the point of the council of nicea where the 'debate' of who is Jesus and who is God started. Not even a discussion on the holy spirit yet.

The disciples of Jesus didn't accept Paul and differed with him. Everyone differed with Paul. That's why the majority of Paul's books and letters in the new testament (not God's word) are about arguing, boasting, talking about himself, ranting, etc... He was bringing about new ideas that conflicted with the revealed word of God, Jesus' original way and teachings, the disciples' teachings, etc... etc... He was trying really hard to convince everyone that he was not a fraud.

Paul not Jesus was the one that said the atonement of sin is death.
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« Reply #191 on: January 02, 2013, 02:45:51 PM »

Another interesting point is that another of the topics of discussions in the council of nicea was whether to worship/celebrate the day of Easter. Which was pagan. It has nothing to do with Jesus (pbuh), it has to do with the goddess of fertility Ishtar:
Quote
Another result of the council was an agreement on when to celebrate Easter, the most important feast of the ecclesiastical calendar, decreed in an epistle to the Church of Alexandria in which is simply stated

We also send you the good news of the settlement concerning the holy pasch, namely that in answer to your prayers this question also has been resolved. All the brethren in the East who have hitherto followed the Jewish practice will henceforth observe the custom of the Romans and of yourselves and of all of us who from ancient times have kept Easter together with you.[The Seven Ecumenical Councils:114]

So easter, a pagan practice over takes passover. That's what 'pasch' referers to and when they say 'jewish practice'.

Easter eggs, bunnies, have nothing to do with jesus (pbuh). They just happened to almost always coincide.

Quote
The word Easter appears once in the King James version of the Bible.Herod has put Peter in prison, "intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people" (Acts 12:4). Yet in the original Greek text the word is not Easter, but Pesach, that is Passover. So why was the name changed? Please read on, and remember Exodus 34:14; For you shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous G-d.

"Asherah" the Greek form of this word from the Septuagint is "Astarte", who is the Babylonian goddess of the sea, sea being symbolic of people, and consort of the god El. She was the mother of several gods, including Ba'al, the Babylonian god of the sun. These deities were soon adopted by the Canaanites when they named these female deities the Asherah or Asherim. These deities were made of wood carved from a type of evergreen tree, or often they were set up in Canaanite homes as full trees cut down from a forest. The Asherim normally were highly acknowledged during two specific occasions. First and foremost, they were the fertility gods of the spring equinox, when the days and nights were approximately the same in length, signifying the beginning of living things growing for the summer season. A very common practice in the Canaanite religion was performed on the first Sunday of the equinox. The families would face east to await the rising of the sun, which was the chief symbol of the sun god, Ba'al. Later on during the day, the children of the Canaanite parents would often go and hunt for eggs, which were symbolic of sex, fertility and new life. It was believed that these eggs came from rabbits, which in the pagan world were symbolic of lust, sexual prowess and reproduction. The Canaanites, however, were not the only ones who worshiped rabbits as deities. The Egyptians and the Persians (Babylon) also held rabbits in high esteem because they believed that rabbits first came from the divine Phoenix birds, who once ruled the ancient skies until they were attacked by other gods in a power struggle. When they were struck down, they reincarnated into rabbits, but kept the ability to produce eggs like the ancient birds to show their origins.

Other stories concerning the egg rose later in the Middle Ages by the Anglo-Saxons, where they believed the origin of the Universe had the earth being hatched out of an enormous egg. Decorating eggs came about to honor their pagan gods and were often presented as gifts to other families to bring them fertility and sexual success during the coming year. And secondly, they were highly worshiped and celebrated during the winter solstice. As according to Jer. 10:1-5; Is. 40:19-20; 41:7 and 44:9-20, the pagans would go out into the forest and do one of two things. Either they chopped down a tree and carved a female deity out of it, or they would simply bring the tree into the house and decorate it with gold and silver ornaments symbolizing the sun and the moon while nailing a stand on the bottom so it would not totter or tip over.

Out of this practice came many other variations of these pagan festivals until the Roman Catholic Church adopted the Asherah worship and named it EASTER around 155 A.D. According to the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA, Easter was named after a pagan goddess of the Anglo-Saxons named Eostre, the goddess of the dawn. A great controversy arose between the Catholic Church and the Greek Orthodox Church in 325 A.D. on whether to celebrate Easter on Sundays or on whatever day the Jewish Passover fell upon. Unfortunately, the Greeks lost a lot of followers and the Catholics contended that keeping Easter on Sundays would stimulate the practices of both the Christian world and the pagan worshipers. Note that the word CATHOLIC means "universal" or "one world" in thought, concept and practice. Hence, since the original practice of Asherah worship we now have in our time the celebration of Easter, a counterfeit holiday to the true Christian festival of the Passover which was instituted in the Bible and completed in the New Testament when Christ died on the cross as our Passover Lamb.
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« Reply #192 on: January 02, 2013, 03:04:05 PM »

Yes but my point is that there are no manuscripts available from the second century to compare todays work too, there simply is not, such manuscript would fetch 20 billion dollars or even mor, people have been looking but have not found any original text from the New T, so saying so is speculation at most. I mean I can speculate that the Koran has been changed as well since the work written in the 7th century does not exist today and as truebb said that it might have said this, well I can say the same about the Koran but saying and proving are two different things and it can not be proven that these words have been changed unless you have the original work to compare it to.
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« Reply #193 on: January 02, 2013, 03:25:12 PM »

Gerd R Puin and many other theologians and universities scholars all think that the manuscripts from the Koran are complete contradictions of the original and has been changed and altrered through transaltion and I can also find you lots of Muslims who agree that it has been changed.

See, no different then what you guys are claiming about Christianity is also applicable to you as well at the university scholarly level.

here is just one quote.


My idea is that the Koran is a kind of cocktail of texts that were not all understood even at the time of Muhammad. Many of them may even be a hundred years older than Islam itself. Even within the Islamic traditions there is a huge body of contradictory information, including a significant Christian substrate; one can derive a whole Islamic anti-history from them if one wants.[1]
The Koran claims for itself that it is 'mubeen,' or 'clear,' but if you look at it, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn't make sense. Many Muslims—and Orientalists—will tell you otherwise, of course, but the fact is that a fifth of the Koranic text is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Koran is not comprehensible—if it can't even be understood in Arabic—then it's not translatable. People fear that. And since the Koran claims repeatedly to be clear but obviously is not—as even speakers of Arabic will tell you—there is a contradiction. Something else must be going on




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« Reply #194 on: January 02, 2013, 03:27:56 PM »

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNdvsLh128Q" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNdvsLh128Q</a>
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« Reply #195 on: January 02, 2013, 03:36:13 PM »

That's in their ignorance of the qur'an ironically. As it was revealed in a living language and a language that is still spoken today by billions. It's also amusing to compare the bible and qur'an as they are nothing alike. Nothing. The qur'an merely re-affirms what was, does not 'copy'. As again, the style of the bible's many books and the qur'an are NOTHING alike. The eloquence and simplicity of the qur'an is incomparable to the bible. Especially if we look at something like paul's writings which are literally his rants.

The qur'an also speaks very little about Muhammad (pbuh), unlike Paul's writings which speak all about him him him.

There is no confusion or contradiction in it's writing as it is consistent.

What I was referring to with the NT is that what we have of the oldest manuscripts and parchments illustrates that later and deliberate manipulations were created. We can see and KNOW when even these manipulations were made and often times very much so why.

One rather significant fraud is the story of the prostitute and stoning her. This was not in the oldest manuscripts. The church tried to say that some 'unholy people', "erased" the story from the earlier manuscripts. This makes no sense at all. It is a clear coy story to denounce the law and enforce trinitarian doctrine. As is attested to, NOT a story of Jesus, NOT what Jesus spoke, yet it is included. As such revised bibles indicate this is not found in the original manuscripts but it is kept for "tradition's" sake.

Likewise with translations, there were deliberate mistranslations of words.

As far as the qur'an is concerned, it was revealed in the qureishi dialect and it was recorded as such. The difference of the other dialects occured when people from other regions speaking arabic diferently started pronouncing words differently. As such Uthman (ra) the caliphate made it his mandate to officiate and compile the qur'an in the original standard as instructed by Muhammad (pbuh) and it is what we have up to this day.

The only addition was the accents for non-arab speakers.
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« Reply #196 on: January 02, 2013, 03:42:30 PM »

That's in their ignorance of the qur'an ironically. As it was revealed in a living language and a language that is still spoken today by billions. It's also amusing to compare the bible and qur'an as they are nothing alike. Nothing. The qur'an merely re-affirms what was, does not 'copy'. As again, the style of the bible's many books and the qur'an are NOTHING alike. The eloquence and simplicity of the qur'an is incomparable to the bible. Especially if we look at something like paul's writings which are literally his rants.

The qur'an also speaks very little about Muhammad (pbuh), unlike Paul's writings which speak all about him him him.

There is no confusion or contradiction in it's writing as it is consistent.

What I was referring to with the NT is that what we have of the oldest manuscripts and parchments illustrates that later and deliberate manipulations were created. We can see and KNOW when even these manipulations were made and often times very much so why.

One rather significant fraud is the story of the prostitute and stoning her. This was not in the oldest manuscripts. The church tried to say that some 'unholy people', "erased" the story from the earlier manuscripts. This makes no sense at all. It is a clear coy story to denounce the law and enforce trinitarian doctrine. As is attested to, NOT a story of Jesus, NOT what Jesus spoke, yet it is included. As such revised bibles indicate this is not found in the original manuscripts but it is kept for "tradition's" sake.

Likewise with translations, there were deliberate mistranslations of words.

As far as the qur'an is concerned, it was revealed in the qureishi dialect and it was recorded as such. The difference of the other dialects occured when people from other regions speaking arabic diferently started pronouncing words differently. As such Uthman (ra) the caliphate made it his mandate to officiate and compile the qur'an in the original standard as instructed by Muhammad (pbuh) and it is what we have up to this day.

The only addition was the accents for non-arab speakers.
Well, apparently there is, or at least lots of people believe that there is.
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« Reply #197 on: January 02, 2013, 03:43:22 PM »

Well show me an example.

While I can show you in the bible contradictions left and right, story based, account based and even numerical based contradictions. In the very same books, paragraphs even one after the other. That's how riddled it is with errors.

Shortly after embracing Islam I took it upon myself to go through certain books in the bible to look for numerical errors and miscalculations. It blew my mind as God would not make simple arithmetic errors. Just one case. Then of course the story and accounts especially in the new testament. Especially when it comes to Jesus what he said, did, and his followers. The narrations are not consistent in their message across the books.

Every single one of the qur'ans in existence are exactly the same in the original Arabic. Hundreds of millions of people literally have memorized the qur'an word for word. There are even 4 year old children that have memorized the qur'an word for word.
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« Reply #198 on: January 02, 2013, 03:59:41 PM »

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZLYSVFt2MY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZLYSVFt2MY</a>
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« Reply #199 on: January 02, 2013, 04:03:28 PM »

This was a very sad story.... I heard this, this year actually:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHDE8V--KOo" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHDE8V--KOo</a>
Quote
Published on 14 Apr 2012
*** Update: Young Bara'ah has passed away. May Allah SWTA join her with her mother and father in the highest levels of Jannah. Ameen.

This is the recitation of Bara'ah, a 10 year old girl diagnosed with Cancer. She is reciting from Surah Saffaat, Ayahs 83-102.

Here is her story:

Bara'ah is a 10 year old who finished memorizing the whole Qur'an with Tajweed. Her parents were doctors who moved to Saudi Arabia in search of better life. Bara'ah was very intelligent. Her teacher used to tell her that she should be in middle school not primary school.

Her family was small and committed to Islam and its teachings. One day, her mother began experiencing severe abdominal pain. After going to the hospital and diagnostics tests and imaging performed, it was discovered that she had cancer, but in its late stages.

The mother thought she should tell her daughter, especially if she wakes up one day and didn't find her mother beside her. Being at the young tender age of 10, her mother told her: "Bara`ah, I will go to paradise ahead of you, but I want you to read the Quran you memorized every day since it will protect you in this life."

The little girl didn't really understand what her mother was trying to tell her, but she began feeling the change in her mother's status. Soon, her mother was was transferred to stay in the hospital on a permanent basis. Bara'ah used to come to the hospital after school and recite the Quran for her mother until the evening when her father would take her home.

One day the hospital called the husband and informed him that the his wife's condition had deteriorated and that it would be advisable to come to the hospital immediately. The father picked up Bara`ah from school and headed to the hospital. When they arrived, he asked her to stay in the car so he could first see what the condition of his wife was.

The father got out of the car with tears filled in his eyes. While crossing the road to enter the hospital, he was hit by a speeding car and died in front of his daughter who came crying to her father.

The tragedy of Bar`ah is not over yet. The news of her father's death was hidden from the mother. Her condition steadily worsened, and 5 days later, she passed away leaving Bar`ah alone without her parents. Her parents' friends decided to find her relatives in Egypt so that they could take care of her.

Soon thereafter, Bara`ah began having severe pain, similar to what her mother experienced. At the hospital, she too was diagnosed with cancer. At the surprise of everyone she said, "Alhamdulillah, now I will meet my parents."

All of the family friends were shocked at her response. This little girl, being faced with calamity after calamity, yet she remained patient and satisfied with what Allah ordained for her!

The news of Bara'ah and her story spread. One Saudi heard of her story and decided to take care of her. He sent her to the UK to receive the appropriate treatment for her condition.

In the UK, her condition worsened and the cancer spread throughout her body with metastasis in multiple organs. The doctors had to amputate her legs, yet she still remained patient. Soon, the cancer spread to her brain the doctors had to do brain surgery. Bara'ah went into a full coma.

Before she went into coma, one of the Islamic channels (Al Hafiz - The protector) got in contact with this little girl and asked her to recite the Qur'an. This video is of her beautiful recitation of Surah Saffaat.
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