RONNIE BEATS ME, quote from Dorian Yates

[NarcissisticDeity]

I stand corrected: you are completely correct: Dorian HAS faced someone with the size, shape, bodyparts and taper that ronnie had: Lee Haney.

AND HE LOST!

I rest my case.

He beat the heaviest Mr Olympia winner up until that point in the musculairty round and lost what the posing round? lol this was his first Mr Olympia EVER and where was Ronnie at his first Olympia? oh thats right dead last . 

[NarcissisticDeity]

wrong:

Oh yes not nearly as sharp and developed as Yates  and BTW nice distension on the gut.

[suckmymuscle]

  These Ronnie fa ggot groupies cannot get over the fact that, speculation aside, Dorian has ACTUALLY defeated Ronnie several times, while Ronnie has never taken down The Shadow, even once. Point for The Yates, there.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

[Hulkster]

  These Ronnie fa ggot groupies cannot get over the fact that, speculation aside, Dorian has ACTUALLY defeated Ronnie several times, while Ronnie has never taken down The Shadow, even once. Point for The Yates, there.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

yup. Dorian beat Ronnie. In 1992 and 1994. Not 1998 or 1999.

just a slight difference in Ronnie's physique from 1992 as compared to 1999.

just slight.

[Jean Paul Gaultier]

WHYTE HYPE.  There are about 5 guys i can name that eclipse yates,


FLEX
LEVRONE
DILETT
NASSER
SHAWN


to compare Ronnie to yates is to compare a chunk of shit to a 20 carrot diamond.

[Oliver Klaushof]

Yates has owned Ronnie so far in all the comparison pics - just as he owned him in the actual competition. Lights out Coleman.

[suckmymuscle]

yup. Dorian beat Ronnie. In 1992 and 1994. Not 1998 or 1999.

just a slight difference in Ronnie's physique from 1992 as compared to 1999.

just slight.

  Jim Manion, NPC president and fromer Mr.O judge, has actually said that Dorian would defeat Coleman. Case closed.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

[Hulkster]

Yates has owned Ronnie so far in all the comparison pics - just as he owned him in the actual competition. Lights out Coleman.

]

so you thought that Dorian had a better most muscular pose? are you insane?

ps- if Ronnie at his best were to take on Dorian (dorian has stated in the past that the felt that the 95 version of himself was his best ever form) he would loose.

why?

because to take on the guy with arguably bodybuildings greatest biceps ever with one missing biceps muscle (post tear) is asking for a loss.

that would be a HUGE disadvantage, in addition to the "missing" quad muscles from the front.


dorian is insane if he thinks that ANY post tear version of himself is better than 93 or 92.

[sculpture]

WHYTE HYPE.  There are about 5 guys i can name that eclipse yates,


FLEX
LEVRONE
DILETT
NASSER
SHAWN


to compare Ronnie to yates is to compare a chunk of shit to a 20 carrot diamond.

Why the 180. You were all for ronnie besting dorian and now you've changed your mind?

[Oliver Klaushof]

I agree. Dorian = 20 carat diamond. Ronnie = shit 

[Zugzwang]

WHYTE HYPE.  There are about 5 guys i can name that eclipse yates,


FLEX
LEVRONE
DILETT
NASSER
SHAWN


to compare Ronnie to yates is to compare a chunk of shit to a 20 carrot diamond.

What a retarded post. And you put it in bold as well. None of those guys beat Yates ever in competition. Not once. In a period when all were at career peaks.

Your comment is so ludicrous that it absolutely must have been a wind-up.

[Zugzwang]

but it didn't because Yates was so much more massive, the judges didn't care.

it should be obvious that the same trick would not work against Ronnie.

Although the identical logic could be applied to several of his 'wins', as I'm sure you'd agree.

[NarcissisticDeity]

]

so you thought that Dorian had a better most muscular pose? are you insane?

ps- if Ronnie at his best were to take on Dorian (dorian has stated in the past that the felt that the 95 version of himself was his best ever form) he would loose.

why?

because to take on the guy with arguably bodybuildings greatest biceps ever with one missing biceps muscle (post tear) is asking for a loss.

that would be a HUGE disadvantage, in addition to the "missing" quad muscles from the front.


dorian is insane if he thinks that ANY post tear version of himself is better than 93 or 92.

Lets Yates would loose because Ronnie has better biceps? lol poor logic , using your logic Yates would win because he has better calves , oh and how about Ronnie's missing calves? that would be no disadvantage? and what about Ronnie mediocre
ide head of his triceps that wouldn't be a HUGE disadvantage though because its Ronnie lol oh and lets not forget Ronnie's mediocre abs  look you can break it down part by part both men have some weaknesses but when push comes to shove Dorian at his best would have a 10lb weight advantage plus better balance & proportion , he would simply look better in most of the mandatory poses ontop of having an edge on conditioning , purely from a mathematical standpoint Yates would win just based on his higher winning percentage 88% vs 57% 

And as far as the most muscular pose is concerned I would say Yates in 95 beats Ronnie 01 ASC take a look

[Zugzwang]

I think one thing to remember that, despite all the naysaying and speculation about how Dorian should have lost in '94 and '97, I don't believe anybody got very close to him at all in any of his Mr O wins scoring-wise. I think he basically blew everyone away. Back in '93 I believe Bannout said he was first, second and third, and Ray himself said in one year ('93 or '95) that Dorian was untouchable. I think Flex said something similar. He beat these super-elite guys at their peaks, and none of them got close to him at all (I think Nasser ran him the closest one year, possibly '97).

(Incidentally, is Colemans 9th in 1997 to 1st in 1998 the biggest leap for a Mr O winner?)

With Ronnie, however, he's been ran close many a time, and has had comparable 'gifts' to what Yates is always accused of by the haters. Most people gave Cutler the edge in 2001, despite the failed tests afterwards (which are irrelevant to the judges decision, although with hindsight I always wondered whether the Weiders knew in advance and wanted to make sure they didn't have to disqualify the actual Mr O, and so gave Cutler the #2 spot to play it safer). A lot of people think Kevin Levrone edged Coleman in 2002 (including Levrone himself, obviously. ).

Also, whilst Levrone was arguably still at peak, most of the true greats of the 90s had faded (Flex, Nasser, Ray, etc) and it's probably a fair point that Ronnie was not competing against the same class of competitors that Yates was in his reign.

We also need to consider that if Yates had not been basically forced into retirement, he may well have come back with a Coleman-like package in 1998 or 1999; there's no reason to suspect he wasn't capable of another 20 pounds of muscle (or more) given that he's only a inch shorter than Ronnie.

Finally, Yates in '93 took the Mr O competition to an entirely new level, and he was as big a winner as any Mr O in history has ever been, before or since. He was that far ahead of the rest of the field. Ronnie has never really had that, although in 2003 he came close to such a domination.

I think, on paper, the Ronnie of ASC-peak 2001 would beat the Dorian of 1993 (assuming that's his best shape) but Yates retired a relatively young man. To be fair to them both, if he'd continued without injury I have no doubt that he'd have found a way to compete and probably beat an at-peak Coleman, although one shudders to think just how big the guts would have got before the judges decided to blow the whistle on them.

[MrUniverse]

Here is the 1997 Mr O, check it out

http://www.getbig.com/pics/olympia/1997/mro-pics.htm?

[dearth]

So Ronnie doesn't have calves?    His calves are easily among the biggest in the history of bodybuilding! 

Coleman's popsicle stick calves, the biggest ever???

this easily wins the most ridiculous statement of this thread award.

[Dr. Xavier]

Yates looks great in that most muscular pic. One of Ronnie's unfortunate weakness is in fact his posing. His front lat spread, side tricep and side chest poses could use some improvements. Dorian front lat spread is amazing. He keeps his chest and ribcage very high, whereas Ronnie tend to cave his chest in a little. Quad still lack any real rectus femoris, but no amount of posing practice will help him develop that muscle

I think the following pic is one of the best front lat spreads I've ever seen...

[Hulkster]

Lets Yates would loose because Ronnie has better biceps? lol poor logic , using your logic Yates would win because he has better calves , oh and how about Ronnie's missing calves? that would be no disadvantage? and what about Ronnie mediocre
ide head of his triceps that wouldn't be a HUGE disadvantage though because its Ronnie lol oh and lets not forget Ronnie's mediocre abs  look you can break it down part by part both men have some weaknesses but when push comes to shove Dorian at his best would have a 10lb weight advantage plus better balance & proportion , he would simply look better in most of the mandatory poses ontop of having an edge on conditioning , purely from a mathematical standpoint Yates would win just based on his higher winning percentage 88% vs 57% 

And as far as the most muscular pose is concerned I would say Yates in 95 beats Ronnie 01 ASC take a look

Let me ask you this, in pumping iron, when Arnold was asked to pose in front of the prisoners, did he whip out his calf? No, he flexed his arm.

This is the same attitude that the judges have, had, and always will have;

muscles like calves and triceps will ALWAYS be secondary in the minds of judges when compared to biceps, pectorials and quadriceps etc.

so yes, Yates would be at an early disadvantage right from the get-go if he ever had competed against Ronnie, who can make a reasonable claim to having history's greatest biceps.

[Hulkster]

I think one thing to remember that, despite all the naysaying and speculation about how Dorian should have lost in '94 and '97, I don't believe anybody got very close to him at all in any of his Mr O wins scoring-wise. I think he basically blew everyone away. Back in '93 I believe Bannout said he was first, second and third, and Ray himself said in one year ('93 or '95) that Dorian was untouchable. I think Flex said something similar. He beat these super-elite guys at their peaks, and none of them got close to him at all (I think Nasser ran him the closest one year, possibly '97).

(Incidentally, is Colemans 9th in 1997 to 1st in 1998 the biggest leap for a Mr O winner?)

With Ronnie, however, he's been ran close many a time, and has had comparable 'gifts' to what Yates is always accused of by the haters. Most people gave Cutler the edge in 2001, despite the failed tests afterwards (which are irrelevant to the judges decision, although with hindsight I always wondered whether the Weiders knew in advance and wanted to make sure they didn't have to disqualify the actual Mr O, and so gave Cutler the #2 spot to play it safer). A lot of people think Kevin Levrone edged Coleman in 2002 (including Levrone himself, obviously. ).

Also, whilst Levrone was arguably still at peak, most of the true greats of the 90s had faded (Flex, Nasser, Ray, etc) and it's probably a fair point that Ronnie was not competing against the same class of competitors that Yates was in his reign.

We also need to consider that if Yates had not been basically forced into retirement, he may well have come back with a Coleman-like package in 1998 or 1999; there's no reason to suspect he wasn't capable of another 20 pounds of muscle (or more) given that he's only a inch shorter than Ronnie.

Finally, Yates in '93 took the Mr O competition to an entirely new level, and he was as big a winner as any Mr O in history has ever been, before or since. He was that far ahead of the rest of the field. Ronnie has never really had that, although in 2003 he came close to such a domination.

I think, on paper, the Ronnie of ASC-peak 2001 would beat the Dorian of 1993 (assuming that's his best shape) but Yates retired a relatively young man. To be fair to them both, if he'd continued without injury I have no doubt that he'd have found a way to compete and probably beat an at-peak Coleman, although one shudders to think just how big the guts would have got before the judges decided to blow the whistle on them.

one thing to keep in mind is that I believe that sometimes the judges will normalize contest scoring, so that the number one guy gets a perfect score, the next guy gets a lesser score, even though neither was perfect.

this can be proven by looking at old score sheets, where the number 1 guy got a 5 in each round, the number two guy got a 10, number 3  got 15 etc.

If the judges were not normalizing the scoring, why would each competitor get the same in each round? You would think that they might get a 6, or an 8, 12 etc etc.

Secondly, I would argue that in terms of sheer difference between 1 and 2, ronnie's win in 2003 was won of the most dominating EVER, perhaps even more so than Dorian's 1993 win.

How can you tell?

Well, even today, there are people that felt that Flex should have won in 1993.

But I don't think I have EVER heard anyone say that Jay should have beaten Ronnie in 2003.

Both wins, 1993 and 2003 were Ronnie and Dorian setting new standards respectively.

Another thing to consider:

we all know what happened when a bodybuilder with a great taper added way to much mass (ronnie): he turned into shit.

Can you imagine what a bodybuilder with a not-so-great taper would look like with too much mass (dorian)?

That is why I can't even begin to imagine how bad dorian would have looked at 290 pounds or so, probably something like this:


 

[Hulkster]

everytime someone mentions dorian's most muscular pose, someone posts that pic.

but to be honest, I am not impressed at all.  The only think that jumps out at me in that shot is Dorian's amazing calves.

but looks at his arms and quads: they have almost NO seperation at all.

that is not what a most muscular pose is supposed to look like.


its amazing what a little shape, seperation and vascularity can do, isn't it?

[NarcissisticDeity]

Hulkster keep grasping at straws bro thats all you can do  and I love how you say the judges always take into account chest , quads and biceps first lol the whole way judging is based is to take into account all the muscles not just certain ones thats why they did away with best bodypart awards and if you want to get technical mediocre biceps can be hidden weak calves cannot

You feel Coleman has the better chest of the two yet his sidechest pose isn't as good as Yates , why? because one Ronnie can't hit this shot ( among others ) and because his delts tend to overshadow his sidechest shot , You say Coleman has an advantage with a superior V-taper and a much smaller waist & hips , yet this doesn't help with his front latspread , which Yates again wins , you feel Coleman has better quads yet this doesn't help him beat Yates in the ab-thigh pose Yates wins this one as well , the backs are close , but if we're talking career bests its Yates who would have an edge on thickness and maybe even width , you ever notice that the judges when calling for back shots ask for one leg to be placed back ? this is so they can take in account the calves , so with backs being probably equal with maybe a slight edge going to Yates I'm sure that edge would work in Yates favor , while on paper Coleman may have some theoretical advnatages in bodyparts yet what works in theory doesn't always work out in practice , hence why Yates simply looks much better in most of the mandatory poses .

Career bests

Size - Yates 255lbs - Coleman 245lbs - Advantage Yates
Shape - push - Coleman has some better shaped muscles and so does Yates
Conditioning - Yates it may be slight but Yates none the less
Balance & Proportion - Yates
Aesthetics - While Ronnie isn't in Bob Paris leauge its safe to say his phsique is more appealing ( at his best ever ) than Yates

Side Chest - Yates
Side Tri - Yates
Front Double Bi - Well throw Ronnie a bone because of the the torn bicep
Rear Double Bi - Yates , you can't see the torn bi back here and he has those calves
Ab - Thigh - Yates
Front Latspread - Yates
Rear Latspread - Yates
Most Muscular - at career bests Yates

Posing - Yates -  he knows how to effectively pose and pose properly , Ronnie does his side chest shot wrong , as well as latspreads , in the rearlatspread he always leans forward you're supposed to stand straight , his front latspread looks akward

Bottom line Yates was only beaten by 2 men in his professional career , once to Momo when Yates was 228lbs , later which he aveneged , and by the greatest Mr Olympia ever Lee Haney , which Yates beat in the muscularity round , either way he lost but he managed to bring it to Haney which no one ever did , he said that in 92 he would have beat Haney outright , Ronnie on the other hand has been beaten by a ton of guys on the pro circuit he was a slow starter but he did come into his own but remember he also lost while he was a Mr Olympia something that Yates never did , so based on his history and his win percentage and his dominating mandatories  I think Yates at a career best would beat Coleman .

[Hulkster]

Rear Double Bi - Yates , you can't see the torn bi back here and he has those calves

you are totally insane:


you think THIS is a better back double bi than Ronnie's?? Oh, and your right - you can't see the torn bi here - you can't see EITHER of them because Dorian's biceps disappear from the back..

side chest:

Who said ronnie's side chest shot was not as good as Yates:


dorian's side chest never looked this good: note the striations in Ronnie's chest.  Again, something that dorian barely had.  Also, notice the seperation in the legs and arms. 

Side tri - Yates I agree
Ab and thigh - Yates
Front lat - Yates - but barely.  Why you ask? Because Yates lacks upper chest, quad and arm seperation that Ronnie displays in his front lat spread.

most muscular - you are insane if you think Yates has a better mm than Ronnie - look at all the comparison shots - Yates gets killed

Rear lat - Ronnie but it is close

Front double bi - I love how you subtlely imply that you think Yates is better in this pose when it does nothing but showcase his blocky taper and less than stellar biceps.  ronnie dsstroys him.

so, thats: Ronnie with a 5 to 3 advantage in the mandatories, and given that he had a much better taper, he would probably win the symmetry round.  Yates would probably win the posing round.

But that still leaves Ronnie the winner by a clear margin.

ps - please explain how Yates was more conditioned than Ronnie at his best.

ronnie was striated all over.  Just beacause his muscles look "inflated" does NOT mean he was less conditioned:

It simply means he had larger and better shaped muscles.  With striations on them.

[Hulkster]

 ND,I think you are forgetting just how good Ronnie's back used to be:






I think he would edge out Yates on the back shots.  I don't think yates ever had this kind of detail and size. His back double bi has always been less than great.

[suckmymuscle]

ND,I think you are forgetting just how good Ronnie's back used to be:






I think he would edge out Yates on the back shots.  I don't think yates ever had this kind of detail and size. His back double bi has always been less than great.

  Personally, I think the best Ronnie ever was the one we saw at the 99 O, when he came in the same shape as in 98, except a few pounds heavier. In 2001, he was too depleted and haden't gained any mass in the past two years. In 2003, Ronnie came in too big for his structure, obviously holding a considerable amount of bodyfat(6%) and water under his skin. His 99 shape, when he was 250 lbs, at 4% bodyfat and holding no film of water under his skin was perfect, as he showed full detail in his back, abs and thighs, with no muscle being overpowering and with a tight midsection.

  Dorian's best shape ever, I think, was at the 96 O-which I happened to attend. At 255 lbs, at 2% bodyfat and dehydrated to point of almost needing a Potassium IV, Dorian showed extreme dryness, detail and separation. The minus was that he lost some of his incredible density and fullness, looking a little flat(even though he was still, by far, the fullest of the contest). Next year, Dorian weighed 266 lbs for pre-judging, ballooning to 274 lbs by the night show. His density and hardness were at their all time best, being, in fact, the greatest ever seen in all times. He was still carrying his trademark 2% bodyfat, with almost no water under his skin. However, being almost 20 lbs heavier than the past year had it's bad consequences too. For one, Dorian's midsection was wider, taking away from his balance, and he lost detail in his thighs, chest and also some on his back. He was by FAR the best of the contest, but Dorian failed to translate his extreme density and dryness AND crispness of detail ith muscular balance with his 270 lbs+ package.

  Comparing Dorian to Ronnie can take two different forms. The first involves comparing the best of Ronnie vs the best of Dorian, and the second involves the biggest of Ronnie vs the biggest of Dorian. Let's start with the first. So, let's compare the 255 lbs Dorian from 96 to the 250 lbs Ronnie from 99. Ronnie showed slightly better detail and thigh development than Dorian, at that weight. He also displayed a more classical V-taper, with a great shoulder-toaist ratio. Dorian, on the other hand, trashes Ronnie in density, overall development, back detail, calves and traps development and annihilates him in conditioning. Point for Dorian. Now let's compare the 97 O Dorian to the 2004 Ronnie. Dorian was 274 lbs by the night show, at 2% bodyfat and superbly dry. Ronnie was 296 lbs at the 2004 O, at 5% or 6% bodyfat and clearly holding a thick film of water under his skin. Ronnie showed greater thigh and delt development than Dorian, but Dorian took Ronnie on calves, traps, hamstrings and chest. Ronnie's lats were as wide as Dorian's, but still not as thick. Ronnie's physique was completely out of proportion, with his waist being too wide for his delts and his trap and delt mass overpowering his chest. Ronnie's conditioning was one of the worst I've ever seen on a pro. Besides his unacceptable level of fat and water retained under his skin, he had un overrall bloated look on his entire body, making him display terrible muscular detail for a pro; I've seen NPC competitors show better separation than that. Point for The Yates. I've been to the 1996, 1997, 1999 and 2003 Olympias and I must say that, taking into consideration everything(mass, structure, density, detail and conditioning), Dorian was the superior bodybuilder. As Samir Bannout, Lee Labrada, Mike Mentzer, Sergio Oliva and Michael Francois have all said, at one moment or other:"Dorian is the greatest bodybuilder of all times". I second that.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

[XL™]

Dorian took Ronnie on calves, traps, hamstrings and chest.

lol you think dorian beats ronnie on traps, hamstrings and chest, hahahaha!!!