Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Nutrition, Products & Supplements Info => Topic started by: wavelength on September 04, 2008, 12:36:07 PM
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To be able to log the evolvement of the principles in this thread, I added a change log:
2008-09-04: First version as defined in discussions with The True Adonis in preceding threads.
2008-09-06: Changed "body weight" to "lean body weight" in P1 as suggested by tbombz.
2008-09-07: Changed "weight training" to "anaerobic resistance training" in P4 as suggested by shiftedShapes.
2008-09-09: Added P5 as suggested by technokc and defined by The True Adonis.
2008-09-12: Re-added purpose of diet in first sentence.
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The current version of the Adonis Diet Principles for dieting down while preserving as much muscle mass as possible goes like this (TA, please feel free to correct me at any time):
The Principles, rules that must be followed:
P1) minimum daily protein intake of 1 g/lb lean body weight,
P2) variety of food good enough for proper nutrient intake (e.g. follow USRDA),
P3) deficiency of calories which leads to 1-3 lbs of weight loss per week,
P4) hard anaerobic resistance training at least 3 times a week,
P5) 5-8 hours of sleep per day, depending on individual requirements.
The Myths, factors of minimal, no, or even negative influence:
M1) ratio of macro nutrients other than defined by P1 and P2,
M2) abandonment of alcohol,
M3) intake of "supplements",
M4) proper spacing of meals during the day,
M5) cardio training.
If we take a closer look at the principles (P1-P5), we will see that the classical bodybuilder method of dieting meets all five rules. P1 will always be met, yet usually exceeded. P2 will usually be attempted (although questionable if met) by substituting certain foods with "supplements". P3, P4, and P5 will be met or exceeded.
So where my diet differs, is just the myths (M1-M5). A practical emperical method to find out if M1-M5 are truths or myths is if one and the same individual tries different diets, one after the other, always adhering to the principles (P1-P5), but changing the myths (M1-M5).
I have done that. In my case, I have clearly identified M1-M5 as myths. My current diet includes everything I like to eat. I eat most of my calories at lunch. I drink red wine whenever I feel like it. I don't take any supplements, except for whey protein powder to make P1 easier to meet. I even stopped taking multivitamins after a few weeks into this diet to prove the point. I don't do any cardio. I have never felt better, stronger, healthier, or less hungry than on this diet. I have never preserved more muscle mass.
I would really be interested in input from people who have attempted the same. No scientific articles please. You will always find scientific sources that support one or the other method, the only thing that counts in the end is what works in real life.
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Bump. Since many people claim that the TA diet is crap, has anyone actually tried it? So far I know of two people: TA and me. I don't know about TA but I have tried a lot of different diets and this one's clearly the winner.
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Bump. Since many people claim that the TA diet is crap, has anyone actually tried it? So far I know of two people: TA and me. I don't know about TA but I have tried a lot of different diets and this one's clearly the winner.
Any diet where you restrict calories below maintenance while getting enough protein in will be a winner.If I can sum it up in one sentence, how hard can it be?People really make too much of a big deal about dieting, as Nike says "Just do it".
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Bump. Since many people claim that the TA diet is crap, has anyone actually tried it? So far I know of two people: TA and me. I don't know about TA but I have tried a lot of different diets and this one's clearly the winner.
What you posted are the "wavelength"-principles.
TA's Bullshit approach was "A calorie is a calorie" and the more he got flamed, he adjusted it to a "normal" diet.
What you have posted there is what i have been doing for more than 5 years.
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Any diet where you restrict calories below maintenance while getting enough protein in will be a winner.If I can sum it up in one sentence, how hard can it be?People really make too much of a bid deal about dieting, as Nike says "Just do it".
Exactly!
Where is the "TA principle" in that?
It's like i write "Objects fall down to the floor" and call that the "donkeykong principles".
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The Principles, rules that must be followed:
P2) variety of food good enough for proper nutrient intake (e.g. follow USRDA),
P3) deficiency of calories which leads to 1-3 lbs of weight loss per week,
P4) hard weight training at least 3 times a week.
wow..now we are breaking new ground, why didn't others think about this?
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OK, I was under the impression, that what I have proposed would be considered a crappy diet. As I said, P1-P4 is met with just about any bodybuilder's diet, but if you look at M1-M5, most "classical bodybuilder diets" will go against that.
DonkeyKong: would you also agree that M1-M5 are myths (resp. are they important in your diet) or do you just agree with P1-P4?
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wow..now we are breaking new ground, why didn't others think about this?
In my first post, I say exactly that: every bodybuilder diet follows (or tries to follow) these. It's the myths that are different.
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In my first post, I say exactly that: every bodybuilder diet follows (or tries to follow) these. It's the myths that are different.
if I don't put the " ::)" means that you don't get the sarcasm? ::)
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if I don't put the " ::)" means that you don't get the sarcasm? ::)
OK, so what's your opinion / experience?
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OK, I was under the impression, that what I have proposed would be considered a crappy diet. As I said, P1-P4 is met with just about any bodybuilder's diet, but if you look at M1-M5, most "classical bodybuilder diets" will go against that.
DonkeyKong: would you also agree that M1-M5 are myths (resp. are they important in your diet) or do you just agree with P1-P4?
No.
M1) ratio of macro nutrients other than defined by P1 and P2, RDA is not sufficient for lifters
M2) abandonment of alcohol, has a huuuuuge influence on training performance and general health. A glass wine or so is fine, but binsch drinking will kill you off
M3) intake of "supplements", BUllshit. Some BCAA and creatine will improve your performance a lot. Also some whey after WO is better than milk or food
M4) proper spacing of meals during the day, define 'proper'. i agree though that meal timing isn't that important
M5) cardio training. Not necessary depending on the type of lifting. If you train HIT, you won't shed a lot of fat probably, so getting lean will take a loooooooong time without cardio.
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OK, so what's your opinion / experience?
If you expend more calories than you take in, you will lose weight. It sounds crazy but give it try, you will see that it works.
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M3) intake of "supplements", BUllshit. Some BCAA and creatine will improve your performance a lot. Also some whey after WO is better than milk or food
this is wrong dk - milk has been shown as better than whey after WO due to the combined anabolic/anti catabolic effects of whey/casein combo found in milk.
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If you expend more calories than you take in, you will lose weight. It sounds crazy but give it try, you will see that it works.
Shit!!
You will get the Nobel prize for this brand new "Red Hook Principle"!!!
this is wrong dk - milk has been shown as better than whey after WO due to the combined anabolic/anti catabolic effects of whey/casein combo found in milk.
Wrong. Whey in milk or whey followed by milk will perform way better, for the same reason BCAA post WO followed by Whey will perform better.
You need fast aminos post WO, followed by a meal 45mins to 1h after WO.
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this is wrong dk - milk has been shown as better than whey after WO due to the combined anabolic/anti catabolic effects of whey/casein combo found in milk.
I think I saw a study on that but I can't remember if whey was included as one of the variables.
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In a different thread, I have posted my current diet principles. Since TA has been around here much longer than me and obviously has been pushing the same principles (as confirmed), we should call them the Adonis Diet Principles. The revised version goes like this (TA, please correct me if I'm wrong):
The Principles, rules that must be followed:
P1) minimum daily protein intake of 1g/lb bodyweight,
P2) variety of food good enough for proper nutrient intake (e.g. follow USRDA),
P3) deficiency of calories which leads to 1-3 lbs of weight loss per week,
P4) hard weight training at least 3 times a week.
The Myths, factors of minimal, no, or even negative influence:
M1) ratio of macro nutrients other than defined by P1 and P2,
M2) abandonment of alcohol,
M3) intake of "supplements",
M4) proper spacing of meals during the day,
M5) cardio training.
If we take a closer look at the principles (P1-P4), we will see that the classical bodybuilder method of dieting meets all four rules. P1 will always be met, yet usually exceeded. P2 will usually be attempted (although questionable if met) by substituting certain foods with "supplements". P3 and P4 will be met or exceeded.
So where my diet differs, is just the myths (M1-M5). The only emperical method to find out if M1-M5 are truths or myths is if one and the same individual tries different diets, one after the other, always adhering to the principles (P1-P4), but changing the myths (M1-M5).
I have done that. In my case, I have clearly identified M1-M5 as myths. My current diet includes everything I like to eat. I eat most of my calories at lunch. I drink red wine whenever I feel like it. I don't take any supplements, except for whey protein powder to make P1 easier to meet. I even stopped taking multivitamins after a few weeks into this diet to prove the point. I don't do any cardio. I have never felt better, stronger, healthier, or less hungry than on this diet. I have never preserved more muscle mass.
I would really be interested in input from people who have attempted the same. No scientific articles please. You will always find scientific sources that support one or the other method, the only thing that counts in the end is what works in real life.
Wienerschnitzel, I have to say that for me, all your myths are truths, unfortunately...
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Shit!!
You will get the Nobel prize for this brand new "Red Hook Principle"!!!
Wrong. Whey in milk or whey followed by milk will perform way better, for the same reason BCAA post WO followed by Whey will perform better.
You need fast aminos post WO, followed by a meal 45mins to 1h after WO.
dk, do not ever tell me i'm wrong >:( ;D
read this:
http://www.sportsnutritionworkshop.com/Files/18.SPNT.pdf
and this:
Effect of a hypocaloric diet, increased protein intake and resistance training on lean mass gains and fat mass loss in overweight police officers.
Demling RH, DeSanti L.
Brigham and Women's Hospital, Boston, MA 02115, USA. rhdemling@partners.org
We compare the effects of a moderate hypocaloric, high-protein diet and resistance training, using two different protein supplements, versus hypocaloric diet alone on body compositional changes in overweight police officers. A randomized, prospective 12-week study was performed comparing the changes in body composition produced by three different treatment modalities in three study groups. One group (n = 10) was placed on a nonlipogenic, hypocaloric diet alone (80% of predicted needs). A second group (n = 14) was placed on the hypocaloric diet plus resistance exercise plus a high-protein intake (1.5 g/kg/day) using a casein protein hydrolysate. In the third group (n = 14) treatment was identical to the second, except for the use of a whey protein hydrolysate. We found that weight loss was approximately 2.5 kg in all three groups. Mean percent body fat with diet alone decreased from a baseline of 27 +/- 1.8 to 25 +/- 1.3% at 12 weeks. With diet, exercise and casein the decrease was from 26 +/- 1.7 to 18 +/- 1.1% and with diet, exercise and whey protein the decrease was from 27 +/- 1.6 to 23 +/- 1.3%. The mean fat loss was 2. 5 +/- 0.6, 7.0 +/- 2.1 and 4.2 +/- 0.9 kg in the three groups, respectively. Lean mass gains in the three groups did not change for diet alone, versus gains of 4 +/- 1.4 and 2 +/- 0.7 kg in the casein and whey groups, respectively. Mean increase in strength for chest, shoulder and legs was 59 +/- 9% for casein and 29 +/- 9% for whey, a significant group difference. This significant difference in body composition and strength is likely due to improved nitrogen retention and overall anticatabolic effects caused by the peptide components of the casein hydrolysate. Copyright 2000 S. Karger AG, Basel
no apology needed ;) ;D
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i can dig up 1000 studies that say whey outperforms milk pwo.
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i can dig up 1000 studies that say whey outperforms milk pwo.
is that a challenge :D
go ahead prove me wrong ;)
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is that a challenge :D
go ahead prove me wrong ;)
sorry, I'm out the door catching my flight to Japan.
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sorry, I'm out the door catching my flight to Japan.
hahahahaha
panda 1 - 0 donkeykong
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hahahahaha
panda 1 - 0 donkeykong
whatever.
i don't lie though, i will leave tomorrow on a business trip to japan until oct.
we can revive the thread then if you like.
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whatever.
i don't lie though, i will leave tomorrow on a business trip to japan until oct.
we can revive the thread then if you like.
what kind of Ilegal business are you into, Mr Kong ;D
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A turd, is a turd, is a turd, .... :D
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whatever.
i don't lie though, i will leave tomorrow on a business trip to japan until oct.
we can revive the thread then if you like.
Viel Spass... ;)
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Exactly!
Where is the "TA principle" in that?
It's like i write "Objects fall down to the floor" and call that the "donkeykong principles".
Self Promotion is key.
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what kind of Ilegal business are you into, Mr Kong ;D
Just some boring production plant visits and some tourist spots.
Viel Spass... ;)
Danke!! Ich meld mich bei dir, wenn ich wieder da bin. Mach keinen Scheiss, Junge!
Self Promotion is key.
How about you quit kissing Adonis' ass for a minute?
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No.
M1) ratio of macro nutrients other than defined by P1 and P2, RDA is not sufficient for lifters
M2) abandonment of alcohol, has a huuuuuge influence on training performance and general health. A glass wine or so is fine, but binsch drinking will kill you off
M3) intake of "supplements", BUllshit. Some BCAA and creatine will improve your performance a lot. Also some whey after WO is better than milk or food
M4) proper spacing of meals during the day, define 'proper'. i agree though that meal timing isn't that important
M5) cardio training. Not necessary depending on the type of lifting. If you train HIT, you won't shed a lot of fat probably, so getting lean will take a loooooooong time without cardio.
M1: Is this from your own experience? How exactly did you determine that?
M2: What would you say is the critical level? Being an alcoholic won't help of course.
M3: Have you tried with and without them (still adhering to the principles)? I have.
M4: check.
M5: The rate of weight loss is defined in P3. If it takes too long (regardless of lifting type), you are not following P3.
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If you expend more calories than you take in, you will lose weight. It sounds crazy but give it try, you will see that it works.
I was obviously talking about M1-M5. We have already agreed on P1-P4.
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Wienerschnitzel, I have to say that for me, all your myths are truths, unfortunately...
Have you actually tried to adhere to all principles P1-P4 and still made worse progress by eliminating any of M1-M5? I seriously cannot believe that. Can you give me a concrete example?
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i can dig up 1000 studies that say whey outperforms milk pwo.
As I said, this thread is not supposed to be about scientific studies. You will always find studies that support one opinion or the other. Nutrition science is not (yet) a very exact science. There are just too many interwoven factors which can be disagreed upon.
So I would appreciate reports from personal experience.
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100g of protein per day should be more than enough, unless you are 7'0" 275lbs (if you are that heavy at a shorter height lose weight, you are fat)
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100g of protein per day should be more than enough, unless you are 7'0" 275lbs (if you are that heavy at a shorter height lose weight, you are fat)
yes this guy is fat at 5'11" 275. ::)
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yes that was exactly what he meant, idiot.
you think he's fat there?
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Do you think his comment was for ronnie coleman? Or any other pro?
(http://soulassassins.com/wp-content/douchebag2.jpg)
he said that unless you're 7'0" 275 is too fat, he didn't specify so i assumed he meant everyone, no need to call names Captain Skinny/Fat. :D
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calm down >:( husky hunk
hahahhaa, i'm calm as can be, you're the one hurling insults. :D
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Have you actually tried to adhere to all principles P1-P4 and still made worse progress by eliminating any of M1-M5? I seriously cannot believe that. Can you give me a concrete example?
Will report experience when feeling less post blasted/stoned/bedridden... ;)
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yes this guy is fat at 5'11" 275. ::)
I was talking about naturals.
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100g of protein per day should be more than enough, unless you are 7'0" 275lbs (if you are that heavy at a shorter height lose weight, you are fat)
I would tend to agree with that, my original proposal was 0.5g/lb. Since I easily take in 1g/lb on the current diet, and TA also claimes that he thinks that's what's needed (for hard training), I changed the rule to 1g/lb. This way, individual variations and different training methods should easily be accomodated.
I know that when I am below 0.5g/lb (and I also tried that), strength and muscle mass preservation suffers.
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100g of protein per day should be more than enough, unless you are 7'0" 275lbs (if you are that heavy at a shorter height lose weight, you are fat)
Where are you getting this information ?
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I would tend to agree with that, my original proposal was 0.5g/lb. Since I easily take in 1g/lb on the current diet, and TA also claimes that he thinks that's what's needed (for hard training), I changed the rule to 1g/lb. This way, individual variations and different training methods should easily be accomodated.
I know that when I am below 0.5g/lb (and I also tried that), strength and muscle mass preservation suffers.
fair enough, although there is a big differnce between .5 and 1, and if it is the factor that is making it difficult to stick to a caloric limit I think that it is better to sacrifice protein intake (up to about .5g/lb which comes pretty close to approximating USDA guidelines) then to go over your caloric limit.
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fair enough, although there is a big differnce between .5 and 1, and if it is the factor that is making it difficult to stick to a caloric limit I think that it is better to sacrifice protein intake (up to about .5g/lb which comes pretty close to approximating USDA guidelines) then to go over your caloric limit.
Maybe true. But since I wanted to make this thread about experience only, I took the value I'm currently using. I know that below 0.5 is too low for me and above 1lb is (probably more than) enough. And I don't have any problems to stick to this limit with my current diet. Maybe in my next diet, I will try to aim for 0.6, to see if it is really still enough.
What's your diet like?
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I shoot for about .75 grams per lb.
What is considered "hard training"?
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Maybe true. But since I wanted to make this thread about experience only, I took the value I'm currently using. I know that below 0.5 is too low for me and above 1lb is (probably more than) enough. And I don't have any problems to stick to this limit with my current diet. Maybe in my next diet, I will try to aim for 0.6, to see if it is really still enough.
What's your diet like?
I think it's probably pretty similar to yours. I eat a lot of fiber because it helps keep me satisfied (from fiber 1 yougurt, honey oat flakes, blue berries, and low calorie ice-cream's), a lot of fish, deserts sometimes, pork and and chicken pretty often, beef occasionally, a slice of pizza for lunch a lot of the time. I would guess that I don't eat enough vegetables. I'm not regimented though so I can't tell you exactly. My weight fluctuates between 155 and 150 at 5'8". I'd like to think my BF is low, but it's hard to really know for sure.
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I think it's probably pretty similar to yours. I eat a lot of fiber because it helps keep me satisfied (from fiber 1 yougurt, honey oat flakes, blue berries, and low calorie ice-cream's), a lot of fish, deserts sometimes, pork and and chicken pretty often, beef occasionally, a slice of pizza for lunch a lot of the time. I would guess that I don't eat enough vegetables. I'm not regimented though so I can't tell you exactly. My weight fluctuates between 155 and 150 at 5'8". I'd like to think my BF is low, but it's hard to really know for sure.
Have you tried other approaches? If yes, how do they compare?
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Well since we are talking simply from experience, as far as your M2 principle, I do enjoy drinking and find that my muscles are fuller and I am leaner when I drink twice a week (usually 6-12 beers a night). Not sure if it is because I know I am going out so I train harder and diet better the days before or if it has to do with the beer itself(hell you never know).
I have quit drinking before for extended periods of time(usually because of bitchy girlfriends) and found no benefit to my phsysique. On the other hand there were times when I was drinking 4-6 times a week and was definetly not at my best looking then.
Take from it what you will, just my personal experience.
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Well since we are talking simply from experience, as far as your M2 principle, I do enjoy drinking and find that my muscles are fuller and I am leaner when I drink twice a week (usually 6-12 beers a night). Not sure if it is because I know I am going out so I train harder and diet better the days before or if it has to do with the beer itself(hell you never know).
I have quit drinking before for extended periods of time(usually because of bitchy girlfriends) and found no benefit to my phsysique. On the other hand there were times when I was drinking 4-6 times a week and was definetly not at my best looking then.
Take from it what you will, just my personal experience.
In the times you were drinking 4-6 times a week, were you still following P1-P4? My guess is you were not, or simply could not, due to the high alcohol intake.
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In the times you were drinking 4-6 times a week, were you still following P1-P4? My guess is you were not, or simply could not, due to the high alcohol intake.
Most likely definetly not, I dont like to eat when I am drinking, and when drinking that often it is hard to force myself to eat. However when doing it twice a week it is easier to force myself to do it. I always eat right before drinking and then if I am out I make sure I get something like an order of wings or a hamburger. Then before bed I always eat a can of tuna.
I know science says drinking is bad for training but it could be that the actual beer didnt effect me at all and it was just that I had bad eating habits when drinking.
I will say this though, at the time I definetly did not have the best workouts. Now I usually know when I am drinking so I can plan my workouts accordingly.
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Most likely definetly not, I dont like to eat when I am drinking, and when drinking that often it is hard to force myself to eat. However when doing it twice a week it is easier to force myself to do it. I always eat right before drinking and then if I am out I make sure I get something like an order of wings or a hamburger. Then before bed I always eat a can of tuna.
I know science says drinking is bad for training but it could be that the actual beer didnt effect me at all and it was just that I had bad eating habits when drinking.
I will say this though, at the time I definetly did not have the best workouts. Now I usually know when I am drinking so I can plan my workouts accordingly.
Perfect, so this means that as long as you actually were following P1-P4, alcohol intake had minimal, no, or even positive influence. M2 = Myth.
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Perfect, so this means that as long as you actually were following P1-P4, alcohol intake had minimal, no, or even positive influence. M2 = Myth.
From personal experience, yes, I would have to agree with that.
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Most likely definetly not, I dont like to eat when I am drinking, and when drinking that often it is hard to force myself to eat. However when doing it twice a week it is easier to force myself to do it. I always eat right before drinking and then if I am out I make sure I get something like an order of wings or a hamburger. Then before bed I always eat a can of tuna.
I know science says drinking is bad for training but it could be that the actual beer didnt effect me at all and it was just that I had bad eating habits when drinking.
I will say this though, at the time I definetly did not have the best workouts. Now I usually know when I am drinking so I can plan my workouts accordingly.
when i was a student i often found i was stronger the day after a bender ???
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when i was a student i often found i was stronger the day after a bender ???
Haha, somehow I get the feeling, M2 will become the winner! ;D
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I shoot for about .75 grams per lb.
What is considered "hard training"?
That's a weak point in the principles, I agree. But I think it doesn't really matter. What is important is that if you compare two diet approaches (where at least one of the myths is changed), the type of training must not change, in order for identifying one of M1-M5 as a truth or a myth.
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I think a lot of the myth of drinking may be linked to rest as well. Many people will go out drink, than have to work early and only sleep 4-6 hours instead of their normal 7-9. Instead of realizing that the real culprit may be recovery they blame it on drinking.
I bet you could take any one on these boards and have them do one of two things:
1) Get 4 hours of sleep and workout upon waking
2) Have a late night drinking but get 10-12 hours of sleep and workout
I bet most people will still get a better workout with option 2
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I think a lot of the myth of drinking may be linked to rest as well. Many people will go out drink, than have to work early and only sleep 4-6 hours instead of their normal 7-9. Instead of realizing that the real culprit may be recovery they blame it on drinking.
I bet you could take any one on these boards and have them do one of two things:
1) Get 4 hours of sleep and workout upon waking
2) Have a late night drinking but get 10-12 hours of sleep and workout
I bet most people will still get a better workout with option 2
Exactly, and you bring up a good point. Maybe I should add the hours of sleep to the principles. Have to think about it.
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wavelength, can you tell me:
what is your weight, height?
what are your daily amounts of protein, carbs and fats in g.
what is your weekly workout split, and routine.
is that you in your avatar?
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wavelength, can you tell me:
what is your weight, height?
what are your daily amounts of protein, carbs and fats in g.
what is your weekly workout split, and routine.
is that you in your avatar?
1.) Currently 153lbs, 5'10''
2.) I don't know (see M1). My protein is always higher than 100g, since I take that in powder form to make P1 easier.
3.) Day1: Chest, Triceps, Abs (Day2/3: Rest)
Day4: Back, Biceps, Abs (Day5: Rest)
Day6: Legs, Shoulders, Small Muscle Groups (Day7: Rest)
Do you want more details?
4.) Yes. Diet progress in my General/Pictures thread.
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1.) Currently 153lbs, 5'10''
2.) I don't know (see M1). My protein is always higher than 100g, since I take that in powder form to make P1 easier.
3.) Day1: Chest, Triceps, Abs (Day2/3: Rest)
Day4: Back, Biceps, Abs (Day5: Rest)
Day6: Legs, Shoulders, Small Muscle Groups (Day7: Rest)
Do you want more details?
4.) Yes. Diet progress in my General/Pictures thread.
if you had to estimate, how many grams of protein, carbs, fat?
yes can you tell me your workout routine, not specific, but general reps/sets/no: of excercises, weights etc.
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if you had to estimate, how many grams of protein, carbs, fat?
I eat out at lunch and that's also where I take in most of my daily calories. So it will differ significantly from day to day. Maybe around 160g Protein, 120g Carbs, 70g Fats on avarage. One day a week (or every other week, depending on P3), I eat whatever I want without any caloric restriction. The absolute numbers are hard to guess, since I don't count calories, I only go by experience and weight loss.
yes can you tell me your workout routine, not specific, but general reps/sets/no: of excercises, weights etc.
I should mention that I have tried a lot of different methods (number of rest days, rep range, splits, etc.). I don't think it matters too much, but I can tell you my current specifics:
All mentioned muscle groups: two exercises, 3-5 sets / exercise, aiming for 8-10 reps. on the heavy sets. Last one or two sets to failure.
Chest: DB Presses straight + incline
Triceps: Dips with additional weight + cable pulldowns
Back: Pullups with additional weight + cable pulldowns with narrow grip
Biceps: EZ-Bar + DB curls or cable curls
Abs: Different types of crunches
Legs: Leg presses + leg extensions
Shoulders: DB Presses + don't know what it's called in english (lean forward and extend arms to side)
Other Muscle Groups: shrugs, forearm curls, etc.
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1 gram per pound of body weight just barely makes the mark for sufficient protein intake. However i would note that this is based on LEAN body weight, and also this is when coupled with a caloric surplus and suffficient carbohydrate intake as well. In a caloric deficit, or without sufficient carbohydrates, youll need more protein than just 1 gram per pound of lean body weight.
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1 gram per pound of body weight just barely makes the mark for sufficient protein intake. However i would note that this is based on LEAN body weight, and also this is when coupled with a caloric surplus and suffficient carbohydrate intake as well. In a caloric deficit, or without sufficient carbohydrates, youll need more protein than just 1 gram per pound of lean body weight.
Lean body mass it is then (changed it in the first page, since easier to compare with people of different BF level).
Since your last statement goes against M1, is this from your own experience? In my experience, below 0.5g/lb is too low and 1g/lb is (probably more than) sufficient.
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1 gram per pound of body weight just barely makes the mark for sufficient protein intake. However i would note that this is based on LEAN body weight, and also this is when coupled with a caloric surplus and suffficient carbohydrate intake as well. In a caloric deficit, or without sufficient carbohydrates, youll need more protein than just 1 gram per pound of lean body weight.
I wouldn't say "just barely". It's rather on the high end in accordance with most scientific studies I've seen. At least the one lb per gram of bodyweight is. Not sure about the grams per lean lb but I suspect that is as well.
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Its based off of both personal experience and off of studies I have read. My personal protein intake is a bit higher than 1 gram per pound of lean body weight, as I seem to grow a little better, stay a bit fuller when cutting fat, when I get around 2 grams per pound of TOTAL bodyweight. But I must admit, getting in that much protein consistently is quite a difficult thing for myself to accomplish, so I am not always at that mark; I do the best I can.
When i wrote "just barely", it was based off of the 2.2 grams per kilogram that seems to be the standard consensus among the community of bodybuilding nutritionists.
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When i wrote "just barely", it was based off of the 2.2 grams per kilogram that seems to be the standard consensus among the community of bodybuilding nutritionists.
Ah, I got it. I thought that that was the max amount/higher end of what is needed (anything else being relatively unneeded/useless as you can replace it with carbs, etc.) so that was why I was confused with your wording.
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Have you tried other approaches? If yes, how do they compare?
i used to eat much lower calories with a lot of it coming from "junk food" and less from protein and fiber. I was hungry more but could tollerate it because of less need to concentrate at work. My workouts were just as good and I was a lot leaner.
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Its based off of both personal experience and off of studies I have read. My personal protein intake is a bit higher than 1 gram per pound of lean body weight, as I seem to grow a little better, stay a bit fuller when cutting fat, when I get around 2 grams per pound of TOTAL bodyweight. But I must admit, getting in that much protein consistently is quite a difficult thing for myself to accomplish, so I am not always at that mark; I do the best I can.
When i wrote "just barely", it was based off of the 2.2 grams per kilogram that seems to be the standard consensus among the community of bodybuilding nutritionists.
As I said, scientific studies are not relevant in this thread. I could easily come up with other scientific studies that say otherwise. The first statement I don't understand. I think you meant "1 grams per pound of TOTAL bodyweight" ?
Since the principles are about dieting down while preserving as much muscle as possible: When you say "from personal experience", have you actually tried to diet down with
- P2-P4 met and P1 at significantly above 1 g/lb of lean body mass, compared to
- P2-P4 met and P1 at exactly 1 g/lb of lean body mass?
I'm pretty sure you would not have seen a difference.
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I now fully endorse the Adonis Principles.
Common sense and proven. Plain and simple.
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I now fully endorse the Adonis Principles.
Common sense and proven. Plain and simple.
Excellent!
Will you be using them in your new quest?
Have you also tried the "bodybuilder way" of boiled fish, tasteless chicken, and calorie counting in the past?
I stopped that a long time ago.
I'm a man, not a retarded schoolgirl trying to become a model.
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i used to eat much lower calories with a lot of it coming from "junk food" and less from protein and fiber. I was hungry more but could tollerate it because of less need to concentrate at work. My workouts were just as good and I was a lot leaner.
Interesting. Would you agree to P1-P4 and M1-M5 (being myths) or would you change/add anything?
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Excellent!
Will you be using them in your new quest?
Have you also tried the "bodybuilder way" of boiled fish, tasteless chicken, and calorie counting in the past?
I stopped that a long time ago.
I'm a man, not a retarded schoolgirl trying to become a model.
Everyone uses them after going thru the "bodybuilding way" nonsense first.
Principles = KISS + common sense, 8)
Get your proteins, don't over eat, don't clog your system with supplemental nonsense. Become and optimal machine.
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Alex23 is ripped listen to him about nutrition ;D
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Everyone uses them after going thru the "bodybuilding way" nonsense first.
Haha, I think we would have to narrow that group of people down from "everyone" to "non-masochists". :D
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Alex23 is ripped listen to him about nutrition ;D
True. But Adonis is. ;D
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff301/torquer23/_web12.jpg)
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True. But Adonis is. ;D
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff301/torquer23/_web12.jpg)
:o
How long ago is that?
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alex, what steroids will you be taking while you cut ?
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Interesting. Would you agree to P1-P4 and M1-M5 (being myths) or would you change/add anything?
ok let me see:
The Principles, rules that must be followed:
P1) minimum daily protein intake of 1g/lb lean body weight,
P2) variety of food good enough for proper nutrient intake (e.g. follow USRDA),
P3) deficiency of calories which leads to 1-3 lbs of weight loss per week,
P4) hard weight training at least 3 times a week.
The Myths, factors of minimal, no, or even negative influence:
M1) ratio of macro nutrients other than defined by P1 and P2,
M2) abandonment of alcohol,
M3) intake of "supplements",
M4) proper spacing of meals during the day,
M5) cardio training.
I agree with the myths, though I can't comment on M2 because for the most part I don't like to drink and I think that M3 applies to protein supps as well (maybe multi-vitamins are ok, don't know their impact as I have not done the research). You already know I don't agree with P1 (especially in diet mode). P2-P4 seem ok though I would change a few things. So I would rewrite P3 and P4 as follows:
P3) intake of calories which leads to desired weight loss or gain,
P4) hard anaerobic resistance training at least 3 times a week.
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ok let me see:
I agree with the myths, though I can't comment on M2 because for the most part I don't like to drink and I think that M3 applies to protein supps as well (maybe multi-vitamins are ok, don't know their impact as I have not done the research). You already know I don't agree with P1 (especially in diet mode). P2-P4 seem ok though I would change a few things. So I would rewrite P3 and P4 as follows:
P3) intake of calories which leads to desired weight loss or gain,
P4) hard anaerobic resistance training at least 3 times a week.
OK, good points.
Regarding P1: on my next diet, I will try a lower protein intake, but still above 0.5g/lb lean mass, since this limit I have already determined.
Regarding M3: Yes of course, all supplements are included. M3 does not say that all supplements are evil, it just says that they are not necessary. I chose to use protein supplementation only to make P1 easier, but I could do the same thing with solid food. I quit the multivitamins a few weeks into the diet, I'm sure I can do the same and better with fruits, vegetables, meat, etc.
Regarding P3, I defined a range because I think less than 1lb will probably not be desired by anyone on a diet and more than 3lb will lead to increased muscle loss (which by definition is not desired by a bodybuilder). That's at least my experience.
Regarding P4, You're right, I changed it.
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When you say "from personal experience", have you actually tried to diet down with
- P2-P4 met and P1 at significantly above 1 g/lb of lean body mass, compared to
- P2-P4 met and P1 at exactly 1 g/lb of lean body mass?
Two seperate diets of equal caloric value, but one has a higher % of animal proteins than the other diet ?
The diet with higher & animal proteins will ALWAYS result in a leaner, more muscular body. And it will do so in a shorter amount of time than the other diet.
You can not deny the effects certain foods have on hormones, metabolism, thermogenesis, protein synthesis, ect ect ect.
Proteins = Fat loss food.
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Regarding P3, I defined a range because I think less than 1lb will probably not be desired by anyone on a diet and more than 3lb will lead to increased muscle loss (which by definition is not desired by a bodybuilder). That's at least my experience.
I just suggested that change because I think that these principles also apply to someone who is in a maintenance phase or trying to gain weight slowly.
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I just suggested that change because I think that these principles also apply to someone who is in a maintenance phase or trying to gain weight slowly.
That, I'm actually trying to find out when I'm 'done' with the diet. For now, I can only tell that it works for dieting down at the proposed rate. But I'm pretty sure, you are right.
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Two seperate diets of equal caloric value, but one has a higher % of animal proteins than the other diet ?
The diet with higher & animal proteins will ALWAYS result in a leaner, more muscular body. And it will do so in a shorter amount of time than the other diet.
You can not deny the effects certain foods have on hormones, metabolism, thermogenesis, protein synthesis, ect ect ect.
Proteins = Fat loss food.
I can deny everything that a certain scientific paper says when it goes against my experience. Different scientific papers go against each other in nutrition science all the time. It's not an exact science because there are just too many (partly unknown) factors. If what you say was true, a diet consisting of protein only, would be the best. You will certainly agree that that's not the case.
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I can deny everything that a certain scientific paper says when it goes against my experience. Different scientific papers go against each other in nutrition science all the time. It's not an exact science because there are just too many (partly unknown) factors. If what you say was true, A diet consisting of protein only, would be the best. You will certainly agree that that's not the case.
I think that most science actually agrees with your case. You get no more benefit for fat loss purposes going low carb, etc. over a balanced diet in those I've seen.
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OK, as suggested by technokc (and indirectly by deicide), I want to add a fifth principle about the daily hours of sleep. In my experience, 6 hours are enough for the purpose of the diet. Since I want to define a minimum number that can be applied to the majority of people, I would like some input from other users.
I still want to call them the Adonis principles, so I would also like Adonis to weigh in here, to confirm the necessity resp. minimum number for such a rule.
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Bump for feedback on my last post.
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dude is that your back in the avatar? conditioning looks spot on...can you post full size?
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it depends on the job they do i would say. 6 hours is fine for students, but people with real jobs might need more.
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dude is that your back in the avatar? conditioning looks spot on...can you post full size?
Thanks!
All my pics in my General/Picture thread.
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it depends on the job they do i would say. 6 hours is fine for students, but people with real jobs might need more.
Well I have a real job and it seems to be enough for me. I like to get 8h but have not seen any problems with the diet when sleeping only 6h. Below that though, my workouts / recovery get affected.
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I am VERY proud to see this as an open-source type discussion/revision of the Adonis principles. This is exactly as I intended.
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I don`t think sleep becomes a huge factor as most people get enough sleep over time, unless someone is a chronic insomniac. 5-8 hours should be enough. Also, even just laying down, reading or relaxing is beneficial and conducive to count as rest.
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I don`t think sleep becomes a huge factor as most people get enough sleep over time, unless someone is a chronic insomniac. 5-8 hours should be enough. Also, even just laying down, reading or relaxing is beneficial and conducive to count as rest.
Thanks a lot, that's what I was thinking.
I would again like to define a minimum which could be applied to just about everyone (if possible). Do you name a range because of individual differences or because of daily differences (e.g. depending on the activities during that day)?
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Question for TA:
If you wanted to lose weight, where would you set your caloric intake at initially?
12 cals/pound? More? Less?
Also, would you set it a XX cals/pound of ideal weight, or XX cals/pound of current bodyweight, or perhaps XX cals/pound lean bodyweight.
Gotta admit -- the ideas here are really intriguing. Precedent setting stuff, I think. Wonder if it'll catch on.
I would start with 12-14 per current Bodyweight, and run it straight through. Obviously the longer adherence the greater the result. The ABSOLUTE lowest to go with calories should be 9 calories per bodyweight. Keep in mind that you should not at all have to go this low. Patience is a big factor in this. Most people think they have hit a sticking point, when in fact it is not the case at all. Running 11-12 all the way through should be sufficient to get EXTREMELY ripped.
Also, every 1-2 months or so, adjust your figures to reflect your current bodyweight. So for example, if I weigh 180 lbs from the start I would then be eating about 2160. 2 months later, lets say I weigh 170 so lets adjust it to 2040.
You may not have to adjust it at all if you are progressing just fine. Play it be body and sight.
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I am VERY proud to see this as an open-source type discussion/revision of the Adonis principles. This is exactly as I intended.
Thanks, that's how I see it. The 'revised' was just meant as 'revised' through our discussions in the preceding threads, of course. It was not meant as my revision to your principles. I will change the name of the thread to "The Adonis Diet Principles, Open-Source".
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Question for TA:
If you wanted to lose weight, where would you set your caloric intake at initially?
12 cals/pound? More? Less?
Also, would you set it a XX cals/pound of ideal weight, or XX cals/pound of current bodyweight, or perhaps XX cals/pound lean bodyweight.
Gotta admit -- the ideas here are really intriguing. Precedent setting stuff, I think. Wonder if it'll catch on.
As for catching on, I think most people are really too ignorant when it comes to "nutritionism". They demonize foods for no reason other than ignorance via misinformation, cultural myth and norms as well as mislabeling foods as "good" and "bad".
People are stupid and fearful for the most part.
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The ideas will catch on quicker if you answer my question! ;D
j/k.
But seriously, inquiring minds want to know. I'm game -- I'm giving this a test run for a full month. No deviations. Just need to know where to start.
Thanks in advance TA.
Scroll up a few posts. :)
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Scroll up a few posts. :)
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=232398.msg3284269#msg3284269
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Aas well as mislabeling foods as "good" and "bad".
most people are very stupid, they require this sort of shortcut, expecting them to count calories over the course of a week let a lone a day is completely unreasonable.
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most people are very stupid, they require this sort of shortcut, expecting them to count calories over the course of a week let a lone a day is completely unreasonable.
If people cannot add up to 2000, then something is seriously the matter with them.
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If people cannot add up to 2000, then something is seriously the matter with them.
Even adding to 100 is all but impossible for many of these normals and sub-normals.
At many fast food establishments the register displays pictorially to the cashiers the change that they must give.
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OK, I would like to add a fifth principle for the amount of sleep needed. According to TA's post, I would put it that way:
P5) 5-8 hours of sleep per day, depending on individual requirements.
I think this makes it clear that 8h are sufficient for everyone, while due to individual differences, 5h may also be sufficient for some people. Any objections?
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Added the final principle. I think it's finished. Now that there's 10, we should call them The Adonis Commandments. :)
Mods, you may now make this a sticky. Generations of upcoming bodybuilders will thank you.
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Do you guys weigh your food all day? I figure if I stay at a weight for a long time then just adding cardio a bit more protein will do the trick, why get all scientific about shit? Its not that hard right? Work out to look good, sit on the couch to look like shit.
It's kinda starting to sound like bodybuilding, isn't it? ;D
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It's kinda starting to sound like bodybuilding, isn't it? ;D
HAHAHAHA. Seriously though:
No it's not like bodybuilding. For bodybuilding purposes an ice cream sundae in the morning, and double QP and fries at night works just fine for dieting and bulking just add dominoes for lunch. You will, however, have painfully hard feces and will possibly be malnourished (the verdict is still out on whether you could offset this diet with a multi-vitamin, nutrionalism is really not proven).
This diet is intended to maintain saiety, health, and give BBing results.
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HAHAHAHA. Seriously though:
No it's not like bodybuilding. For bodybuilding purposes an ice cream sundae in the morning, and double QP and fries at night works just fine for dieting and bulking just add dominoes for lunch. You will, however, have painfully hard feces and will possibly be malnourished (the verdict is still out on whether you could offset this diet with a multi-vitamin, nutrionalism is really not proven).
This diet is intended to maintain saiety, health, and give BBing results.
I don`t agree at all with any of your statements other than you can use this to get extremely ripped.
Pizza is one of the most healthy and complete things one can eat. You should really try and track what you eat, you will be surprised at how you stack up against meeting nutritional needs.
I usually get 20 grams of fiber from just a few slices of pizza alone.
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I think it may be beneficial for beginners to keep track of their food intake, just to know what they really take in. For my current diet, I stopped all of that. I know that I'm getting enough protein and enough food variety for all nutrients. Calorie restriction works just by experience. That was actually one reason that made me switch to this kind of diet: I'm lazy.
I can only repeat that I have never felt stronger or healthier than on my current diet. That all while eating whatever I want within the scope of P1-P5, and that does include e.g. chinese food, burgers, and ice cream bars.
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I don`t agree at all with any of your statements other than you can use this to get extremely ripped.
Pizza is one of the most healthy and complete things one can eat. You should really try and track what you eat, you will be surprised at how you stack up against meeting nutritional needs.
I usually get 20 grams of fiber from just a few slices of pizza alone.
this is not typical pizza that you are eating. It may contain a good balance of macronutrients, but most pizza is not fibrous.
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I don`t agree at all with any of your statements other than you can use this to get extremely ripped.
Pizza is one of the most healthy and complete things one can eat. You should really try and track what you eat, you will be surprised at how you stack up against meeting nutritional needs.
I usually get 20 grams of fiber from just a few slices of pizza alone.
Please tell us what kind of pizza you have to get 20 grams of fiber from just 3 pieces. A whole medium pizza usually will have between 3 and 5 grams of fiber. What toppings are you using to make it have this much fiber. Do you sprinkle Metamusel all over it
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OK, I would like to add a fifth principle for the amount of sleep needed. According to TA's post, I would put it that way:
P5) 5-8 hours of sleep per day, depending on individual requirements.
I think this makes it clear that 8h are sufficient for everyone, while due to individual differences, 5h may also be sufficient for some people. Any objections?
Deicide Sleep Principle= Epic Failure (2-3 hours on average)...maybe that is why Low Carb works best for me...
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I would start with 12-14 per current Bodyweight, and run it straight through. Obviously the longer adherence the greater the result. The ABSOLUTE lowest to go with calories should be 9 calories per bodyweight. Keep in mind that you should not at all have to go this low. Patience is a big factor in this. Most people think they have hit a sticking point, when in fact it is not the case at all. Running 11-12 all the way through should be sufficient to get EXTREMELY ripped.
TA,
what are your thoughts on the adjustments one would make to their calories based on their body type? For example, I would classify myself as a endomorph and my job leads me to be basically sedentary during the bulk of my day (desk job). I was just wondering what body type this caloric range was based around, or if there was one in mind at all.
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I don`t think sleep becomes a huge factor as most people get enough sleep over time, unless someone is a chronic insomniac. 5-8 hours should be enough. Also, even just laying down, reading or relaxing is beneficial and conducive to count as rest.
Bullshit; you obviously don't know much about Delta Wave and REM sleep...without these phases 'rest' is worthless....
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Bullshit; you obviously don't know much about Delta Wave and REM sleep...without these phases 'rest' is worthless....
Is it worthless for muscle recovery?
Anyway, as mentioned before, this thread is not about scientific studies, it is about experience only.
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(http://imagesforum.doctissimo.fr/mesimages/3485148/ultra%20sec.jpg)
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(http://imagesforum.doctissimo.fr/mesimages/3485148/ultra%20sec.jpg)
adonis looking good there mars
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I'm not sure what Andi's diet was.
I cannot say if the principles apply to juicers.
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Is it worthless for muscle recovery?
Anyway, as mentioned before, this thread is not about scientific studies, it is about experience only.
maybe not, but being sleep deprived, and 5 hours per night will indeed lead to a deep sleep debt, has been shown to lower metabolism and raise apetite. Which is very counterproductive for a diet obviously.
My personal experience agrees with this, although sometimes in the midst of a manic upswing I can build a sleep debt without increased apetite.
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Deicide Sleep Principle= Epic Failure (2-3 hours on average)...maybe that is why Low Carb works best for me...
With "works best", what do you mean exactly?
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maybe not, but being sleep deprived, and 5 hours per night will indeed lead to a deep sleep debt, has been shown to lower metabolism and raise apetite. Which is very counterproductive for a diet obviously.
My personal experience agrees with this, although sometimes in the midst of a manic upswing I can build a sleep debt without increased apetite.
That's why I wrote "depending on individual requirements". I know of people, who never sleep more than 4 to 5 hours. I need at least 6-7h. Below that, I feel that my workouts and muscle recovery suffers. Others may need up to 8h. I think the range defined by TA should cover the majority of people.
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That's why I wrote "depending on individual requirements". I know of people, who never sleep more than 4 to 5 hours. I need at least 6-7h. Below that, I feel that my workouts and muscle recovery suffers. Others may need up to 8h. I think the range defined by TA should cover the majority of people.
I think that the research shows those effects (increase of apetite, slowing of metabolism) to be true broadly, if there is evidence that those who claim to only need 4-5 hours are not susceptible to these effects I have not heard it.
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I think that the research shows those effects (increase of apetite, slowing of metabolism) to be true broadly, if there is evidence that those who claim to only need 4-5 hours are not susceptible to these effects I have not heard it.
Let's put it this way: I know of people who simply cannot sleep longer than 5h (they cannot fall asleep after 5h anymore) but are still functioning normal in everyday life. Doesn't make sense to have a rule that would exclude them, because that's the best they can do anyway. What the rule means is that if you normally can sleep 6h and also would need 6h for optimal recovery, but only manage to get 5h (because of work etc.), that's gonna have a negative effect.
Below 5h, for most people, will either fall into the aforementioned category, or in the category of insomnia, which I don't know how it affects the principles' applicability.
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Let's put it this way: I know of people who simply cannot sleep longer than 5h (they cannot fall asleep after 5h anymore) but are still functioning normal in everyday life. Doesn't make sense to have a rule that would exclude them, because that's the best they can do anyway. What the rule means is that if you normally can sleep 6h and also would need 6h for optimal recovery, but only manage to get 5h (because of work etc.), that's gonna have a negative effect.
Below 5h, for most people, will either fall into the aforementioned category, or in the category of insomnia, which I don't know how it affects the principles' applicability.
ok...I wish I only needed 5 hours, would give me a lot of extra free time.
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That's why I wrote "depending on individual requirements". I know of people, who never sleep more than 4 to 5 hours. I need at least 6-7h. Below that, I feel that my workouts and muscle recovery suffers. Others may need up to 8h. I think the range defined by TA should cover the majority of people.
Only thing I would say about that, is if you use drinking alcohol as a myth, it really does require more sleep than you normally would.
If I normally sleep x hours than after a hard night of drinking I usually need x +3 hours.
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Adam are you ready to make your system open source?
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I think Adonis is onto something with the theory that you dont need to eat six times a day to make gains though.
Anywhere between 4-6 evenly spaced meals throughout the day will not make that much of a difference when compared to having 6-7 meals per day, and may actually be more beneficial in terms of hunger and protein synthesis, and most importantly practicality. I mean what "normal" person has time to eat 7 meals a day???
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I think Adonis is onto something with the theory that you dont need to eat six times a day to make gains though.
Anywhere between 4-6 evenly spaced meals throughout the day will not make that much of a difference when compared to having 6-7 meals per day, and may actually be more beneficial in terms of hunger and protein synthesis, and most importantly practicality. I mean what "normal" person has time to eat 7 meals a day???
Don't be a bitch, carry your cooler around like everyone else damn it ;D
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I think Adonis is onto something with the theory that you dont need to eat six times a day to make gains though.
Anywhere between 4-6 evenly spaced meals throughout the day will not make that much of a difference when compared to having 6-7 meals per day, and may actually be more beneficial in terms of hunger and protein synthesis, and most importantly practicality. I mean what "normal" person has time to eat 7 meals a day???
I would call that part of the Adonis principles the one with the most validity over traditional bodybuilding diets. Problem is you start out like that in the beginning (especially when you're juicing) and it doesn't pay not to eat progressively more, cleaner food through the preparation process. Even as far as natural dieting goes I really don't think jrod would be leaner dieting Adonis's way over his way, and that's what it boils down to. When the competition really heats up Adonis will have to sacrifice many of his unique methods if he is to pull off the win. That includes having his finger on his water trigger and that takes a consistent, well-thought out nutritional program. He actually missed the deadline last year because of timing issues and he doesn't understand that that is the whole point of the diet being more strict and predictable. He got off by claiming that he didn't know the picture deadline but I assure you Adonis knew everything about that competition as it had become his life's obsession by the time it came to pass.
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Don't be a bitch, carry your cooler around like everyone else damn it ;D
haha!, but truthfully I think if you eat 4-6 calorically dense meals throughout the day, thats all u need.
For example. I was reading Evan Centopani's offseason diet ( and that dude is a fuckin beast ) and its listed below :) .........All it is, is six very calorically dense meals evenly placed throughout the day. Lots of protein, complex carbs, and essential fats spread across the day, and this dude is 300lbs. So for your average 180-200lbs guy 4-5 meals is PLENTY!
Meal 1: 70g whey, 1 cup oats, 3 tbsp olive oil
Meal 2: 10 oz chicken, 1.5 cups (cooked) white rice, 2 cups green salad, 2 tbsp olive oil
Meal 3: same as meal 1
Meal 4: same as meal 2
Meal 5: 10-12 oz red meat, 2 cups green salad, 2 tbsp olive oil, 1 medium potato
Meal 6: same as meals 1 + 3
PWO I have 65 of carbs and 20g of protein from Universal's Torrent and I take 2-3 of their Animal Omega Paks per day in addition to my other Universal supps.
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Even as far as natural dieting goes I really don't think jrod would be leaner dieting Adonis's way over his way, and that's what it boils down to.
Jeff do you think J Rod is a lifetime natty?
(http://www.ixtlan.ru/stereo/50.jpg)
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Only thing I would say about that, is if you use drinking alcohol as a myth, it really does require more sleep than you normally would.
If I normally sleep x hours than after a hard night of drinking I usually need x +3 hours.
But then again, you will usually get it anyway. After the booze, alarm clock = useless. ;D
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I would call that part of the Adonis principles the one with the most validity over traditional bodybuilding diets. Problem is you start out like that in the beginning (especially when you're juicing) and it doesn't pay not to eat progressively more, cleaner food through the preparation process. Even as far as natural dieting goes I really don't think jrod would be leaner dieting Adonis's way over his way, and that's what it boils down to.
The claim is not that the myths make a diet significantly worse. The claim is that they do not make it significantly better. I think you can basically do the same with a traditional BB diet. But why in hell would anybody want to do that, if it's not necessary?
When the competition really heats up Adonis will have to sacrifice many of his unique methods if he is to pull off the win. That includes having his finger on his water trigger and that takes a consistent, well-thought out nutritional program. He actually missed the deadline last year because of timing issues and he doesn't understand that that is the whole point of the diet being more strict and predictable. He got off by claiming that he didn't know the picture deadline but I assure you Adonis knew everything about that competition as it had become his life's obsession by the time it came to pass.
I agree that having a more controlled type of diet would make the process more predictable in a competition situation for most people. Still the question is if M1 holds true. From my experience, I cannot tell right now, because I have never been close to contest condition. But I will try to find out on my current diet.
Jeff, do you think that if you would follow a very controlled diet (as you probably have in your contest preparations), but e.g. only control the amount of calories, and not the macro composition with the exception of P1 and P2, that would make getting into contest condition harder or even impossible?
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haha!, but truthfully I think if you eat 4-6 calorically dense meals throughout the day, thats all u need.
For example. I was reading Evan Centopani's offseason diet ( and that dude is a fuckin beast ) and its listed below :) .........All it is, is six very calorically dense meals evenly placed throughout the day. Lots of protein, complex carbs, and essential fats spread across the day, and this dude is 300lbs. So for your average 180-200lbs guy 4-5 meals is PLENTY!
Meal 1: 70g whey, 1 cup oats, 3 tbsp olive oil
Meal 2: 10 oz chicken, 1.5 cups (cooked) white rice, 2 cups green salad, 2 tbsp olive oil
Meal 3: same as meal 1
Meal 4: same as meal 2
Meal 5: 10-12 oz red meat, 2 cups green salad, 2 tbsp olive oil, 1 medium potato
Meal 6: same as meals 1 + 3
PWO I have 65 of carbs and 20g of protein from Universal's Torrent and I take 2-3 of their Animal Omega Paks per day in addition to my other Universal supps.
I eat most of my calories at lunch. Additionally, I sip on a protein shake during the day, to make P1 easier. If I feel hungry at night I'll add a little snack. That's it. Up to now, this got me in the condition displayed in my avatar.
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(http://www.ixtlan.ru/stereo/50.jpg)
What/who is it? Looks like a werewolf.
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ok...I wish I only needed 5 hours, would give me a lot of extra free time.
I only need 5 but then again I only get 2 or 3 usually... :-\
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I only need 5 but then again I only get 2 or 3 usually... :-\
Perfect, you will be my guinea pig for insomniacs! ;D
Still waiting for the report... :)
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What/who is it? Looks like a werewolf.
I thought it looked like bruce lee or some other type of martial artist. I could never see them before until a couple days ago when I decided I wanted to get more control over my eyes. They are so cool!
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I thought it looked like bruce lee or some other type of martial artist. I could never see them before until a couple days ago when I decided I wanted to get more control over my eyes. They are so cool!
It's a martial arts pose but if you look at the head, you will see that it's not human.
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Perfect, you will be my guinea pig for insomniacs! ;D
Still waiting for the report... :)
Tell it to the Arabs who fucked up/stole the internet connection...
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I would call that part of the Adonis principles the one with the most validity over traditional bodybuilding diets. Problem is you start out like that in the beginning (especially when you're juicing) and it doesn't pay not to eat progressively more, cleaner food through the preparation process. Even as far as natural dieting goes I really don't think jrod would be leaner dieting Adonis's way over his way, and that's what it boils down to. When the competition really heats up Adonis will have to sacrifice many of his unique methods if he is to pull off the win. That includes having his finger on his water trigger and that takes a consistent, well-thought out nutritional program. He actually missed the deadline last year because of timing issues and he doesn't understand that that is the whole point of the diet being more strict and predictable. He got off by claiming that he didn't know the picture deadline but I assure you Adonis knew everything about that competition as it had become his life's obsession by the time it came to pass.
Moron.
I never even made an attempt to compete in anything last year nor did I say I would. I wasn`t even around here last year. Get your facts straight and in order, they are all OVER the place. Pay Attention for once.
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It is amazing how Jeff continually constructs stories completely in his consciousness.
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i agree completely that you do not need to eat every 3 hours to be a professional bodybuilder or just look good.
studies are showing more and more there is virtually zero reason for increased meal frequency.
i personally only eat twice a day every 12hours and i hold size very well - sitting at 253 on monday at 5'11" 8)
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It's a martial arts pose but if you look at the head, you will see that it's not human.
hard to make out any details on the head, maybe you are confusing the background pattern with the 3D part?
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hard to make out any details on the head, maybe you are confusing the background pattern with the 3D part?
Nopes, the head has wolf-like ears and a long snout. I'm 100% sure.
If you go on the site directly, you will get a bigger image:
http://www.ixtlan.ru/picture.php?image=50.jpg (http://www.ixtlan.ru/picture.php?image=50.jpg)
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i agree completely that you do not need to eat every 3 hours to be a professional bodybuilder or just look good.
studies are showing more and more there is virtually zero reason for increased meal frequency.
i personally only eat twice a day every 12hours and i hold size very well - sitting at 253 on monday at 5'11" 8)
What's your protein intake?
What's your body fat?
Are you natural?
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Nopes, the head has wolf-like ears and a long snout. I'm 100% sure.
If you go on the site directly, you will get a bigger image:
http://www.ixtlan.ru/picture.php?image=50.jpg (http://www.ixtlan.ru/picture.php?image=50.jpg)
yeah I can kind of see what you are talking about
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What's your protein intake?
What's your body fat?
Are you natural?
Bump for Fatpanda's answer.
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What's your protein intake?
What's your body fat?
Are you natural?
protein intake is at around 200g a day - non workout days 330 g workout days due to pre post w/o milk/protein shakes.
bodyfat is around 20% - i can see my top abs.
no i'm not natural - however i have only taken very small amounts of winny and dbol. i.e. 20mg winny a day and 10mg dbol 30mins before w/o. as it takes very little for me to get results. i've been up as high as 290's.
been on high fat diet - but it hasn't been working, so i've recently went back to low fat and its working well. 8)
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protein intake is at around 200g a day - non workout days 330 g workout days due to pre post w/o milk/protein shakes.
bodyfat is around 20% - i can see my top abs.
no i'm not natural - however i have only taken very small amounts of winny and dbol. i.e. 20mg winny a day and 10mg dbol 30mins before w/o. as it takes very little for me to get results. i've been up as high as 290's.
been on high fat diet - but it hasn't been working, so i've recently went back to low fat and its working well. 8)
Ever been single digit bodyfat?
I also tried low carb diets, but my strength and size diminished.
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To be able to log the evolvement of the principles in this thread, I added a change log:
2008-09-04: First version as defined in discussions with The True Adonis in preceding threads.
2008-09-06: Changed "body weight" to "lean body weight" in P1 as suggested by tbombz.
2008-09-07: Changed "weight training" to "anaerobic resistance training" in P4 as suggested by shiftedShapes.
2008-09-09: Added P5 as suggested by technokc and defined by The True Adonis.
2008-09-12: Re-added purpose of diet in first sentence.
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The current version of the Adonis Diet Principles for dieting down while preserving as much muscle mass as possible goes like this (TA, please feel free to correct me at any time):
The Principles, rules that must be followed:
P1) minimum daily protein intake of 1 g/lb lean body weight,
P2) variety of food good enough for proper nutrient intake (e.g. follow USRDA),
P3) deficiency of calories which leads to 1-3 lbs of weight loss per week,
P4) hard anaerobic resistance training at least 3 times a week,
P5) 5-8 hours of sleep per day, depending on individual requirements.
The Myths, factors of minimal, no, or even negative influence:
M1) ratio of macro nutrients other than defined by P1 and P2,
M2) abandonment of alcohol,
M3) intake of "supplements",
M4) proper spacing of meals during the day,
M5) cardio training.
If we take a closer look at the principles (P1-P5), we will see that the classical bodybuilder method of dieting meets all five rules. P1 will always be met, yet usually exceeded. P2 will usually be attempted (although questionable if met) by substituting certain foods with "supplements". P3, P4, and P5 will be met or exceeded.
So where my diet differs, is just the myths (M1-M5). The only emperical method to find out if M1-M5 are truths or myths is if one and the same individual tries different diets, one after the other, always adhering to the principles (P1-P5), but changing the myths (M1-M5).
I have done that. In my case, I have clearly identified M1-M5 as myths. My current diet includes everything I like to eat. I eat most of my calories at lunch. I drink red wine whenever I feel like it. I don't take any supplements, except for whey protein powder to make P1 easier to meet. I even stopped taking multivitamins after a few weeks into this diet to prove the point. I don't do any cardio. I have never felt better, stronger, healthier, or less hungry than on this diet. I have never preserved more muscle mass.
I would really be interested in input from people who have attempted the same. No scientific articles please. You will always find scientific sources that support one or the other method, the only thing that counts in the end is what works in real life.
WOA WOA WOA
he changed minimum .5 gram to minimum 1 gram of protein? >:(
and he doesn't believe in cardio training? ::)
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It is amazing how Jeff continually constructs stories completely in his consciousness.
as I have said before Adonis.....
you shouldn't give these people "our" secrets
the secrets we have worked hard for and the ones that help us get shredded
they must experiment for themselves ;)
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Ever been single digit bodyfat?
I also tried low carb diets, but my strength and size diminished.
yes, i was around 9% in my early 20's. then started a bulk - went up to 290's, now i'm 250's. lost alot of muscle going from 290 to 250 due to a long layoff following torn rotators.
its amazing how quickly strength comes with carbs. 8)
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yes, i was around 9% in my early 20's. then started a bulk - went up to 290's, now i'm 250's. lost alot of muscle going from 290 to 250 due to a long layoff following torn rotators.
its amazing how quickly strength comes with carbs. 8)
how fucking fat did you get to get up to 290? :o
how tall are you?
how old are you?
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WOA WOA WOA
he changed minimum .5 gram to minimum 1 gram of protein? >:(
and he doesn't believe in cardio training? ::)
I think it's better to name a minimum which should work for everyone. My guess is that the value is lower, but from my experience I cannot tell right now. I know that below 0.5g is too low for me and above 1g is sufficient.
I don't think cardio is necessary as long as you stick to P3. The only difference it makes is that you can eat a little more. I don't see any other advantage from my experience.
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yes, i was around 9% in my early 20's. then started a bulk - went up to 290's, now i'm 250's. lost alot of muscle going from 290 to 250 due to a long layoff following torn rotators.
its amazing how quickly strength comes with carbs. 8)
ooooops I missed the post where you said you were a steroid user ;D
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yes, i was around 9% in my early 20's. then started a bulk - went up to 290's, now i'm 250's. lost alot of muscle going from 290 to 250 due to a long layoff following torn rotators.
its amazing how quickly strength comes with carbs. 8)
What was your weight at 9%?
How old are you now?
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I think it's better to name a minimum which should work for everyone. My guess is that the value is lower, but from my experience I cannot tell right now. I know that below 0.5g is too low for me and above 1g is sufficient.
I don't think cardio is necessary as long as you stick to P3. The only difference it makes is that you can eat a little more. I don't see any other advantage from my experience.
well, when I cut I eat 3500 calories and do 45-60 minutes of cardio
so.....tell that to my abs ;D
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how fucking fat did you get to get up to 290? :o
how tall are you?
how old are you?
probably around 20-25% fat at 290's
5'11"
30 years old.
What was your weight at 9%?
How old are you now?
i was around 210lbs at 9% when i was 23-25
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well, when I cut I eat 3500 calories and do 45-60 minutes of cardio
so.....tell that to my abs ;D
What's your point? Skip the cardio and eat a little less. I have tried both, and it makes absolutely no difference.
Except for not running in a treadmill like a fockin' hamster. :D
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i was around 210lbs at 9% when i was 23-25
You must have been quite a beast, panda.
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What's your point? Skip the cardio and eat a little less. I have tried both, and it makes absolutely no difference.
Except for not running in a treadmill like a fockin' hamster. :D
I tried eating less and not doing that much cardio for months
and I lost 30 pounds of muscle :D
I need alot of food and alot of activity ;D
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well, when I cut I eat 3500 calories and do 45-60 minutes of cardio
so.....tell that to my abs ;D
I'll tell them as soon as I can see them, you're not that lean there stud.
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i have always liked to experiment. i've been as low as 147lbs(not really bodybuilding at that time, more cardio/sports)and as high as 290's. i've tried low carb, high carb, volume, hit, lots of cardio , no cardio, pre workout, post workout. and i feel i have finally figured some things out - many of which tie up with your/adonis's thoughts.
however as for the weight numbers, they are just numbers. i might be as big a dex on paper, but in reality i know we are worlds apart.
i'm lucky in that i repsond well to gear, so if/when i do hit the test/deca, etc i think i will blow up. at the moment i'm very busy and can't give bodybuilding the time i would like, however in a month i will be free to go for it.
i already have what i need, just have to wait on the right time.
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I tried eating less and not doing that much cardio for months
and I lost 30 pounds of muscle :D
I need alot of food and alot of activity ;D
That's interesting. When you lost the 30 lbs of muscle without the cardio, did you follow P1-P5, or was there at least one you didn't or couldn't follow for some reason?
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i have always liked to experiment. i've been as low as 147lbs and as high as 290's. i've tried low carb, high carb, volume, hit, lots of cardio , no cardio, pre workout, post workout. and i feel i have finally figured some things out - many of which tie up with your/adonis's thoughts.
Would be interested to hear you findings in more detail, especially where they do not conform to the principles.
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well for a start i feel your protein recomendation is low. It will build muscle, but not optimally. whenever i have increased my protein intale to 1.5-2g/lbs i always got bigger.
also i feel nutrient timing is perhaps the most important factor to growth - at my biggest i hadn't touched a steroid. but i did eat loads straight after my workout. around 120-150g protein, 200-250g carb, 50g fats. the fats did get stored as fat however. in hindsight i wonder how i would have looked if a had zero fats after the workout (something i am trying now, and seeing great results - but with winny/dbol)
in the past, my leanest was when i did cardio after a workout. i understand and agree about calories being king, however i feel cardio can burn calories without negitively impacting metabolism. which is especially useful for me as a true endomorph type.
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workout wise, i saw great results from hst, in fact it is what i used to get to my heaviest weight, but it also burned me out, and made my quit lifting for 6 months.
max ot worked really well, and i got bigger immediately, but it killed my shoulders and is also responsible for my torn rotators >:( (well that and my lazy warm ups).
overall i think you can't go wrong with 3x10 per muscle twice per week.
at the moment i'm trying out a 20rm 10rm 5rm system per muscle group twice per week thats working really well 8)
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well for a start i feel your protein recomendation is low. It will build muscle, but not optimally. whenever i have increased my protein intale to 1.5-2g/lbs i always got bigger.
yes when you gain adipose tissue you tend to get bigger
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yes when you gain adipose tissue you tend to get bigger
;D
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That's interesting. When you lost the 30 lbs of muscle without the cardio, did you follow P1-P5, or was there at least one you didn't or couldn't follow for some reason?
how many calories would a person eat ?
like 12X bodyweight?
how many calories would someone who weights 200 pound eat?
I'm 230 how many would I eat ;D
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well, when I cut I eat 3500 calories and do 45-60 minutes of cardio
so.....tell that to my abs ;D
You're not all that lean there.
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You're not all that lean there.
I know ;)
I'm wasn't getting ready for a contest so why would I be shredded? ;D
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;D
kung fu panda was great huh?
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kung fu panda was great huh?
yes i was :D
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well for a start i feel your protein recomendation is low. It will build muscle, but not optimally. whenever i have increased my protein intale to 1.5-2g/lbs i always got bigger.
- Up to now they're called "diet principles".
also i feel nutrient timing is perhaps the most important factor to growth - at my biggest i hadn't touched a steroid. but i did eat loads straight after my workout. around 120-150g protein, 200-250g carb, 50g fats. the fats did get stored as fat however. in hindsight i wonder how i would have looked if a had zero fats after the workout (something i am trying now, and seeing great results - but with winny/dbol)
- Up to now they're called "diet principles".
- Do you have an actual comparison of doing exactly the same and just changing nutrient timing? I have.
in the past, my leanest was when i did cardio after a workout. i understand and agree about calories being king, however i feel cardio can burn calories without negitively impacting metabolism. which is especially useful for me as a true endomorph type.
- What we would need here is again an actual comaprison, where you would have followed P1-P5 on both diets and eliminated M5 on one of the two. I have done exactly that.
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workout wise, i saw great results from hst, in fact it is what i used to get to my heaviest weight, but it also burned me out, and made my quit lifting for 6 months.
max ot worked really well, and i got bigger immediately, but it killed my shoulders and is also responsible for my torn rotators >:( (well that and my lazy warm ups).
overall i think you can't go wrong with 3x10 per muscle twice per week.
at the moment i'm trying out a 20rm 10rm 5rm system per muscle group twice per week thats working really well 8)
IMO, they all work OK as long as you're training hard.
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how many calories would a person eat ?
like 12X bodyweight?
how many calories would someone who weights 200 pound eat?
I'm 230 how many would I eat ;D
That was not an answer to the question. The principles say nothing about the total amount of calories a certain individual would need to meet them. So again, did you follow P1-P5? Sorry to be obnoxious, but I'm really interested.
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- Do you have an actual comparison of doing exactly the same and just changing nutrient timing? I have.
- What we would need here is again an actual comaprison, where you would have followed P1-P5 on both diets and eliminated M5 on one of the two. I have done exactly that.
yes when i didn't eat before/straight after a workout my gains froze for quite a while, as soon as i ate immediatley after the w/o i grew - calories were equal.
no, as there is no way to acurately track the calories burned by cardio or weight without expensive hightec equipment, however as i said i am a endomorph, you clearly are an ectomorph. you can perhaps get leaner than me on higher calories, or perhps your body is more efficient at burning energy. where as i stalled at 9% despite only taking in 1000 cals a day + cardio+weights.
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yes when i didn't eat before/straight after a workout my gains froze for quite a while, as soon as i ate immediatley after the w/o i grew - calories were equal.
Although right now, the principles only apply to dieting down, I still have a hard time believing that.
When you say "grew" do you mean you only got stronger with the right timing or you only gained weight at all with the right timing?
no, as there is no way to acurately track the calories burned by cardio or weight without expensive hightec equipment, however as i said i am a endomorph, you clearly are an ectomorph. you can perhaps get leaner than me on higher calories, or perhps your body is more efficient at burning energy. where as i stalled at 9% despite only taking in 1000 cals a day + cardio+weights.
I gain fat very easily, so I'm not sure about my body type. I don't really believe in the ecto-meso-endo categorization. I do think there are differences to certain factors attempted to be described by such categories, but most of the time a certain person will have a combination of these factors not covered by one of the types.
In any way, the principles say nothing about the total amount of calories needed to follow them. Following them does not require any hightech equipment. I just watch the rate of weight loss and adjust calorie intake accordingly. I did that with and without cardio. Even if we take into account, that my body reacts differently than yours, the difference between the diets in my case was not just small, it was 0.
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Although right now, the principles only apply to dieting down, I still have a hard time believing that.
When you say "grew" do you mean you only got stronger with the right timing or you only gained weight at all with the right timing?
yes, muscle increased in size, strength increased too. I didn't stay at that calorie level long though, maybe only a month, then i increased them around the w/o and the gains kept on coming, which led to the bulk i went on.
we can agree to disagree about the cardio. i do not think it is possible for you to know with any great certainty how many calories you will burn doing weights or cardio to enable to acurately say it has zero impact over calorie restriction alone. as you lose weight, your buring less calories with every activity, so while yes you can increase cardio which will either maintain the original calorie defecit or you can reduce calories from meals, but to know which part is most responsible or even if it is optimal would take much study.
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yes, muscle increased in size, strength increased too. I didn't stay at that calorie level long though, maybe only a month, then i increased them around the w/o and the gains kept on coming, which led to the bulk i went on.
we can agree to disagree about the cardio. i do not think it is possible for you to know with any great certainty how many calories you will burn doing weights or cardio to enable to acurately say it has zero impact over calorie restriction alone. as you lose weight, your buring less calories with every activity, so while yes you can increase cardio which will either maintain the original calorie defecit or you can reduce calories from meals, but to know which part is most responsible or even if it is optimal would take much study.
Well I know one thing fo' sho', I'm not gonna run in a fockin' treadmill anymore, if I'm not 100% convinced that it makes any difference. I certainly need no study for that. ;D
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Cardio just makes me weaker/more drained. Waste of time, imo.
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Cardio just makes me weaker/more drained. Waste of time, imo.
Spoken the truth.
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That was not an answer to the question. The principles say nothing about the total amount of calories a certain individual would need to meet them. So again, did you follow P1-P5? Sorry to be obnoxious, but I'm really interested.
the whole principle is based on the fact that CALORIES are the only thing that matters not what type of food
so you're saying that I can eat 4000 calories and lose 1-3 pounds a week?
yes I followed but I wasn't eating enough
1500-1800 calories, that is no where near enough so I lose 30 pounds of muscle in a matter of months and my body fat % actually went higher
now I'm eating twice that amount and I'm leaner than ever before ;)
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Proper bodybuilding-style cardio shouldnt make you lose energy or strength. In fact quite the opposite. Just make sure your doing very light cardio. Walking on a zero incline at 2.6mph for 35 mins after your weight training for example. Its not so much a 'cals in vs. cals out" thing... but more of a hormone related thing.
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the whole principle is based on the fact that CALORIES are the only thing that matters not what type of food
Nopes, see P1 and P2.
so you're saying that I can eat 4000 calories and lose 1-3 pounds a week?
No, didn't say that.
yes I followed but I wasn't eating enough
1500-1800 calories, that is no where near enough so I lose 30 pounds of muscle in a matter of months and my body fat % actually went higher
now I'm eating twice that amount and I'm leaner than ever before ;)
OK, so what you're saying is that with cardio you are able to eat twice as much when you're on the same rate of weight loss as without cardio? I never heard that one. I don't think that's even physically possible, unless you are doing 5h of cardio each day. Are you sure you got your numbers right? No bash, maybe you're really a genetic freak, but that's unheard of, AFAIK.
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Cardio just makes me weaker/more drained. Waste of time, imo.
Exactly. If anything, it eats away muscle. Completely unnecessary in my experience.
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Proper bodybuilding-style cardio shouldnt make you lose energy or strength. In fact quite the opposite. Just make sure your doing very light cardio. Walking on a zero incline at 2.6mph for 35 mins after your weight training for example. Its not so much a 'cals in vs. cals out" thing... but more of a hormone related thing.
Is this from experience? Did you try to follow P1-P5 with and without very light cardio? I tried different forms of cardio, including very light cardio for 1h a day. Zero difference.
IMO, the hormone related thing is easily achived by the "cardio" you automatically get from weight training and normal daily activity.
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Exactly. If anything, it eats away muscle. Completely unnecessary in my experience.
nonsense, why do you think westside put so much emphasis on gpp - it improves overall fitness and allows their athletes to get stronger.
in my example my fat loss was stalled on 1000cals a day with cardio and weights, if i ate any less, i'd be starving, my protein levels would be far too low to maintain my lean body mass, and i'd have virtually zero energy, in fact at 1000 i already felt that way. cardio was my only option to increase calorie expenditure without imacting my already baseline diet. in the end i said fvck this, and started eating like a real man again. :D
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nonsense, why do you think westside put so much emphasis on gpp - it improves overall fitness and allows their athletes to get stronger.
Maybe it's nonsense for you, I'm only talking from experience.
in my example my fat loss was stalled on 1000cals a day with cardio and weights, if i ate any less, i'd be starving, my protein levels would be far too low to maintain my lean body mass, and i'd have virtually zero energy, in fact at 1000 i already felt that way. cardio was my only option to increase calorie expenditure without imacting my already baseline diet. in the end i said fvck this, and started eating like a real man again. :D
You kept your weight at 1000kcals a day? What was your weight then?
I'm around 150-155lbs right now and I need 2000kcals to maintain.
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i was around 210, i was weak as a kitten, constantly tired, was eating virtually no fat 5g max a day. 200g protein, very low carb, 30-40g a day. i lasted around a month with no change in weight. and gave i gave up and started eating again.
so it proves to me we are all different, 2000-2500 cals is maintenence for me.
looking at your pictures it sems to me you are ripped to the bone, have you ever been over 20% body fat? over 15%? have you ever tried a bulk?
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i was around 210, i was weak as a kitten, constantly tired, was eating virtually no fat 5g max a day. 200g protein, very low carb, 30-40g a day. i lasted around a month with no change in weight. and gave i gave up and started eating again.
so it proves to me we are all different, 2000-2500 cals is maintenence for me.
I don't understand. You say that 2000-2500 cal is maintenence yet you couldn't lose weight on half of that? How is that even possible?
I agree that we're all different, but if you can't lose weight on 1000 cals weighing 210 (which would be your maintenance intake in this case), that means I would need almost 3 times the cals/lb bodyweight you need to maintain. That sounds like a stretch to me. Are you absolutely sure these numbers are correct? Again, no bash, I'm just curious.
looking at your pictures it sems to me you are ripped to the bone, have you ever been over 20% body fat? over 15%? have you ever tried a bulk?
I'm not ripped to the bone yet. In my current diet I want to find out how far I can go with the principles, and if they hold true until contest condition. The small avatar pics are somewhat misleading, full pics are in my progress thread: http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=222371.0 (http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=222371.0)
Yes I bulked. My heaviest was about 185 lbs, where I probably had about 17% BF.
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I'm not ripped to the bone yet. In my current diet I want to find out how far I can go with the principles, and if they hold true until contest condition. The small avatar pics are somewhat misleading, full pics are in my progress thread: http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=222371.0 (http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=222371.0)
Looking good in those pics, Wave.
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Looking good in those pics, Wave.
Thanks! Unfortunally, Deicide is right, chicken legs :-\
... all the way puny, actually ;D
My next quest will be to bulk on the Adonis Principles.
I'm gonna be a monster. ;D
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I don't understand. You say that 2000-2500 cal is maintenance yet you couldn't lose weight on half of that? How is that even possible?
I agree that we're all different, but if you can't lose weight on 1000 cals weighing 210 (which would be your maintenance intake in this case), that means I would need almost 3 times the cals/lb bodyweight you need to maintain. That sounds like a stretch to me. Are you absolutely sure these numbers are correct? Again, no bash, I'm just curious.
yes, positive, i couldn't believe it myself, however for some reason i have a unique bodychemisty. for instance i have taken 300-400mcg t3 with no effect( different brands), 360-480mcg clen, with no effect, i have taken up to 800mg of dnp with little if any fat loss - certainly no scale change, and no visable fat loss - plenty of sides though.
but ephedrine, caffeine always works ???
i am an asthmatic, and think my salbutamol inhaler has something to do with it, but i can't be sure.
i simply believe i need to hammer the cardio for at least an hour a day if i intend to get back to single digit bf.
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yes, positive, i couldn't believe it myself, however for some reason i have a unique bodychemisty. for instance i have taken 300-400mcg t3 with no effect( different brands), 360-480mcg clen, with no effect, i have taken up to 800mg of dnp with little if any fat loss - certainly no scale change, and no visable fat loss - plenty of sides though.
but ephedrine, caffeine always works ???
i am an asthmatic, and think my salbutamol inhaler has something to do with it, but i can't be sure.
i simply believe i need to hammer the cardio for at least an hour a day if i intend to get back to single digit bf.
Strange. So without cardio, you can't lose weight on 1000cal. If you do the 1h cardio a day, how many cals can you take in then and lose weight (and at what rate can you lose weight)?
Sorry to hear about your asthma, I certainly know nothing about the effects that would have on dieting.
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Strange. So without cardio, you can't lose weight on 1000cal. If you do the 1h cardio a day, how many cals can you take in then and lose weight (and at what rate can you lose weight)?
Sorry to hear about your asthma, I certainly know nothing about the effects that would have on dieting.
no with cardio, i did not lose weight on 1000cals a day. i was only doing 15 mins a day, as i couldn't stand anymore with eating so few calories, i was craving food non stop, i was so weak and tired. every weight workout felt like the hardest ever. with the cardio every leg movement felt like i was climbing a mountain.
what i'm saying is i believe i can/could lose more fat if i added cardio at a higher calorie range, and increased it there to increase calorie expenditure if needed, thus keeping my metabolism higher, rather than drop calories via food reduction thus slowing metabolism down, which i did in the past, and which i feel was the cause of me stalling at 1000cals.
don't worry about the asthma, it barely has any effect on my life.
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no with cardio, i did not lose weight on 1000cals a day. i was only doing 15 mins a day, as i couldn't stand anymore with eating so few calories, i was craving food non stop, i was so weak and tired. every weight workout felt like the hardest ever. with the cardio every leg movement felt like i was climbing a mountain.
what i'm saying is i believe i can/could lose more fat if i added cardio at a higher calorie range, and increased it there to increase calorie expenditure if needed, thus keeping my metabolism higher, rather than drop calories via food reduction thus slowing metabolism down, which i did in the past, and which i feel was the cause of me stalling at 1000cals.
don't worry about the asthma, it barely has any effect on my life.
you were eating 1000 calories a day?
dude how the fuck did you live?
you would lose 90% muscle with that amount of calories
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I don't understand. You say that 2000-2500 cal is maintenence yet you couldn't lose weight on half of that? How is that even possible?
I agree that we're all different, but if you can't lose weight on 1000 cals weighing 210 (which would be your maintenance intake in this case), that means I would need almost 3 times the cals/lb bodyweight you need to maintain. That sounds like a stretch to me. Are you absolutely sure these numbers are correct? Again, no bash, I'm just curious.
I'm not ripped to the bone yet. In my current diet I want to find out how far I can go with the principles, and if they hold true until contest condition. The small avatar pics are somewhat misleading, full pics are in my progress thread: http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=222371.0 (http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=222371.0)
Yes I bulked. My heaviest was about 185 lbs, where I probably had about 17% BF.
you obviously don't know anything about metabolism and starvation mode ::)
and you obviously don't know this simple principle
eating less = slowing metabolism
doing cardio = increasing metabolism
you can eat 500 calories a day and I bet you, you won't lose anyfat week after week, and all you'll lose will be muscle
yes I eat 3,500 calories when I'm cutting
and I eat around 5,000 when I want to maintain
I eat 14,000 calories once in a while just for fun ;)
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you obviously don't know anything about metabolism and starvation mode ::)
and you obviously don't know this simple principle
eating less = slowing metabolism
doing cardio = increasing metabolism
Again, this thread is about experience. I know what works for me and what does not, regardless of nutrition science, which is NOT an exact science (yet), because there are just too many interwoven and unknown factors. Scientific papers in nutrition science go against each other all the time.
Yes I know there are theories which say that (let's take 1h of daily) cardio (in addition to cardio from weight training and normal activities) significantly increases metabolism. In my experience it doesn't.
you can eat 500 calories a day and I bet you, you won't lose anyfat week after week, and all you'll lose will be muscle
The principles say nothing about the absolute ratio of fat loss vs. muscle loss at a certain rate of weight loss. They only say that the myths have no influence on it, as long as P1-P5 are met. Of course one would be stupid not to choose the appropriate amount of weekly weight loss acording to his caloric needs so that he can still meet P1-P5 and keep the aforementioned ratio as high as possible.
yes I eat 3,500 calories when I'm cutting
and I eat around 5,000 when I want to maintain
I eat 14,000 calories once in a while just for fun ;)
The total amount of calories is not important to the principles.
But as I said, if you really can eat twice the amount of calories (for mainenance resp. same rate of weight loss) by changing nothing else than adding 1h of cardio, you must be a genetic freak unheard of until now.
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Again, this thread is about experience. I know what works for me and what does not, regardless of nutrition science, which is NOT an exact science (yet), because there are just too many interwoven and unknown factors. Scientific papers in nutrition science go against each other all the time.
Yes I know there are theories which say that (let's take 1h of daily) cardio (in addition to cardio from weight training and normal activities) significantly increases metabolism. In my experience it doesn't.
The principles say nothing about the absolute ratio of fat loss vs. muscle loss at a certain rate of weight loss. They only say that the myths have no influence on it, as long as P1-P5 are met. Of course one would be stupid not to choose the appropriate amount of weekly weight loss acording to his caloric needs so that he can still meet P1-P5 and keep the aforementioned ratio as high as possible.
The total amount of calories is not important to the principles.
But as I said, if you really can eat twice the amount of calories (for mainenance reps. same rate of weight loss) by changing nothing else than adding 1h of cardio, you must be a genetic freak unheard of until now.
I get what you're saying but it's retarded
the ONLY thing that matters besides getting a minimum of .5 grams of protein per pound is the calories
where the fuck is Adonis so I can tell this to him
it's retarded fatloss is all about calories in vs calories out
and I wasn't born with sixpack abs, I'm not from sparta ;D
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I get what you're saying but it's retarded
How can it be retarded if it works for me? It's the best diet I ever had. I've never been that ripped and managed to preserve as much muscle.
the ONLY thing that matters besides getting a minimum of .5 grams of protein per pound is the calories
where the fuck is Adonis so I can tell this to him
it's retarded fatloss is all about calories in vs calories out
and I wasn't born with sixpack abs, I'm not from sparta ;D
I didn't understand that part. I never claimed that cardio doesn't burn calories. I just choose to eat a little less instead. Takes 1h less time. The principles just say that cardio has no significant influence, if you are still following P1-P5 without it (in effect meaning, eating a little less).
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How can it be retarded if it works for me? It's the best diet I ever had. I've never been that ripped and managed to preserve as much muscle.
I didn't understand that part. I never claimed that cardio doesn't burn calories. I just choose to eat a little less instead. Takes 1h less time. The principles just say that cardio has no significant influence, if you are still following P1-P5 without it (in effect meaning, eating a little less).
how many calories do you eat in a typical day? if you dont know just give me a guess estimate
yes eating less is easier, takes 2 minutes to eat 600 calories and an hour of cardio to burn it >:(
but you gotta to what you gotta do to look the way you gotta look ;D
even if that means "running on a treadmill like a fockin hamster" ;)
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no with cardio, i did not lose weight on 1000cals a day. i was only doing 15 mins a day, as i couldn't stand anymore with eating so few calories, i was craving food non stop, i was so weak and tired. every weight workout felt like the hardest ever. with the cardio every leg movement felt like i was climbing a mountain.
what i'm saying is i believe i can/could lose more fat if i added cardio at a higher calorie range, and increased it there to increase calorie expenditure if needed, thus keeping my metabolism higher, rather than drop calories via food reduction thus slowing metabolism down, which i did in the past, and which i feel was the cause of me stalling at 1000cals.
This sounds like a theory then and not actual experience ... am I right? ;D
As soon as you have managed to diet down with eating more and adding cardio, would be interested to hear.
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how many calories do you eat in a typical day? if you dont know just give me a guess estimate
yes eating less is easier, takes 2 minutes to eat 600 calories and an hour of cardio to burn it >:(
but you gotta to what you gotta do to look the way you gotta look ;D
even if that means "running on a treadmill like a fockin hamster" ;)
Right now I'm dieting and my guess is that I take in about 1500-1750 kcals/day.
I have been training for over 10 years now and I have tried just about every method of weight training, cardio, nutrition, bulking, and dieting there is. In the diets I did, I progressively eliminated the myths M1-M5 up to the point of my current diet, where I eliminated them all. So what I have to do to look the way I look (which is the best I have ever looked condition-wise), is exactly what is layed out in the first post of this thread.
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This sounds like a theory then and not actual experience ... am I right? ;D
As soon as you have managed to diet down with eating more and adding cardio, would be interested to hear.
>:( dude I told you that I have tried eating less with no cardio
and he is right it slows metabolism but doesnt do shit >:(
now if it works for you, then it works for you
what works for you doesn't work for everybody, so stop shoving it down everybody's throats >:(
you have no idea what fatloss is all about ::)
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Right now I'm dieting and my guess is that I take in about 1500-1750 kcals/day.
I have been training for over 10 years now and I have tried just about every method of weight training, cardio, nutrition, bulking, and dieting there is. In the diets I did, I progressively eliminated the myths M1-M5 up to the point of my current diet, where I eliminated them all. So what I have to do to look the way I look (which is the best I have ever looked condition-wise), is exactly what is layed out in the first post of this thread.
dude 1500 is waaaay too low
how much do weigh? cuz if you're 200 pounds thats too low
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I bet you, you have no muscle mass :-\
anybody eating that low amount of calories is not going build no muscle cuz he will be in starvation mode :-*
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how much does this monster eat? ;D
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how much does this monster eat? ;D
more than you
hey quakeroats how about you not be a little bitch and post a picture of yourself ? ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
better yet why don't you enter Mr. Getbig? we'll see who is better
cough.......homo....couc h 8)
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MemberX, the answers to your last 3 posts can all be found in my post 210. I never claimed to be a mass monster. But I have 10 years of experience. Believe me, I know what my caloric needs are.
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MemberX, the answers to your last 3 posts can all be found in my post 210. I never claimed to be a mass monster. But I have 10 years of experience. Believe me, I know what my caloric needs are.
I believe you know, as I have to dial in my calorie needs
;D
eating 1500 calories a day sucks, believe me i know ;D
how low in bodyfat have you gotten?
post a pic ;)
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1700 cals a day?? You're eating like a bird...dude I would rather work harder then sacrifice food, call me crazy but I would never deny my body something when it's screaming for it..
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I believe you know, as I have to dial in my calorie needs
;D
eating 1500 calories a day sucks, believe me i know ;D
how low in bodyfat have you gotten?
post a pic ;)
I have already posted a link of my current diet progress in this thread, here it is again:
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=222371.0 (http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=222371.0)
Progress is also indicated by my avatar. I have started this diet from a point which was not at my best, size-wise (due to injuries, etc.). I decided to go for it anyway, since I wanted to try something new.
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1700 cals a day?? You're eating like a bird...dude I would rather work harder then sacrifice food, call me crazy but I would never deny my body something when it's screaming for it..
exactly, I lost 30 pounds of muscle when I ate 1700 in 2 months and actually got FATTER
........im eating twice as much now and I'm leaner than ever
that would suck, living your whole life on 1700 calories,
I think he has been doing this for so long his metabolism has adapted to 1700 calories a day :-\
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1700 cals a day?? You're eating like a bird...dude I would rather work harder then sacrifice food, call me crazy but I would never deny my body something when it's screaming for it..
The body will be screaming for it anyway if you burn what you eat more.
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exactly, I lost 30 pounds of muscle when I ate 1700 in 2 months and actually got FATTER
........im eating twice as much now and I'm leaner than ever
that would suck, living your whole life on 1700 calories,
I think he has been doing this for so long his metabolism has adapted to 1700 calories a day :-\
You are obviously ignoring my posts. Read post 210. Where did I say I always eat like that? It's a diet. And I've tried many different ways.
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LOL
the quote
"I'm certainly not a mass monster" ;D
how long did you diet for? or have dieted?
cuz I'm telling you if I eat 1700 calories I'll get fatter ;)
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I'm OBVIOUSLY not ignoring your posts >:(
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The body will be screaming for it anyway if you burn what you eat more.
Hold on..I just want to know what you are shooting for? I mean you have pretty good definition, but you really don't have too much muscle on you, and if you keep eating this way, the muscle that you do have you can say goodbye to. However, if your goal is just to get as lean as you can possibly get then it's a different story.
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Hold on..I just want to know what you are shooting for? I mean you have pretty good definition, but you really don't have too much muscle on you, and if you keep eating this way, the muscle that you do have you can say goodbye to. However, if your goal is just to get as lean as you can possibly get then it's a different story.
since my BMR is 2400 calories I'm not going under that ;D
and to maintain I already said i have to eat huge amounts of calories so I don't think that's accurate
who the fuck would wanna be lean in cost of muscle loss and more importantly FOOOOOOOD
fuck looking good, I need my food >:(
I eat cheeseburgers and cake while I "cut" and would never even consider Oats salt and tuna >:( >:(
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I'm OBVIOUSLY not ignoring your posts >:(
Sorry, but thats what you posted:
"I think he has been doing this for so long his metabolism has adapted to 1700 calories a day".
Where as I have written in post 210 that I have tried just about every method there is, including bulks with well over 3000 kcals/day. ;)
My diet started about 10 weeks ago. Before that I have been eating more, of course. I'm also sure that the calories were higher at the beginning of the diet, since I don't go by calories, just by P3.
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Sorry, but thats what you posted:
"I think he has been doing this for so long his metabolism has adapted to 1700 calories a day".
Where as I have written in post 210 that I have tried just about every method there is, including bulks with well over 3000 kcals/day. ;)
My diet started about 10 weeks ago. Before that I have been eating more, of course. I'm also sure that the calories were higher at the beginning of the diet, since I don't go by calories, just by P3.
LOL I eat 3500 calories when I cut and you eat 3000 for "bulk"? :o
lmao there is another problem you "bulk"
I do both at the same time ;)
and I think I manage to pull it off ;D
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Hold on..I just want to know what you are shooting for? I mean you have pretty good definition, but you really don't have too much muscle on you, and if you keep eating this way, the muscle that you do have you can say goodbye to. However, if your goal is just to get as lean as you can possibly get then it's a different story.
I didn't have that much muscle to start with, I already said that. I have been bigger in the past, but that's beside the point. The point is that I have tried eating more and doing cardio while dieting and I couldn't preserve as much strength and muscle (relative to the start of the diet) as on this diet. I should maybe add that I'm a lifetime natural.
The goal is indeed to get as lean as possible this time (while preserving as much muscle as possible, of course). It's an experiment to show how far one can go without the myths M1-M5. We'll see.
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LOL I eat 3500 calories when I cut and you eat 3000 for "bulk"? :o
lmao there is another problem you "bulk"
I do both at the same time ;)
and I think I manage to pull it off ;D
Maybe that's because you're tall as a freaking house and I'm a dwarf? :D
You managed to build quite a base for your height, props for that.
However, we have to see what it boils down to when you get ripped.
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I didn't have that much muscle to start with, I already said that. I have been bigger in the past, but that's beside the point. The point is that I have tried eating more and doing cardio while dieting and I couldn't preserve as much strength and muscle (relative to the start of the diet) as on this diet. I should maybe add that I'm a lifetime natural.
The goal is indeed to get as lean as possible this time (while preserving as much muscle as possible, of course). It's an experiment to show how far one can go without the myths M1-M5. We'll see.
I'm a natural as well, being natural you should know that your going to have to require more calories and more protein when dieting, then someone who is on juice....and bulking on 3,000 cals a day?? I eat more then that on a daily basis, maybe you just have a incredibly slow metabolism I'm guessing..
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Maybe that's because you're tall as freaking house and I'm a dwarf? :D
You managed to build quite a base for your height, props for that.
However, we have to see what it boils down to when you get ripped.
I guess we will see since I only have 4 weeks to get down to 5% bodyfat for Mr. Getbig cuz no one fucking told me about it before >:(
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I guess we will see since I only have 4 weeks to get down to 5% bodyfat for Mr. Getbig cuz no one fucking told me about it before >:(
Are you seriously entering?
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Are you seriously entering?
ofcourse ;)
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I'm a natural as well, being natural you should know that your going to have to require more calories and more protein when dieting, then someone who is on juice....and bulking on 3,000 cals a day?? I eat more then that on a daily basis, maybe you just have a incredibly slow metabolism I'm guessing..
It seems to be enough for me to gain about 1-2lbs a week. Maybe it was higher, I haven't counted calories for a long time, these are all estimates.
As I said, in my earlier years, I tried it all. More protein, less protein, carb cycling, low fat, low carb, no carb, you name it. The method I use now is the result of a 10 year self experiment. It may not apply to everyone, of course. That's what I'm trying to find out in this thread.
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ofcourse ;)
Well then good luck!
Are you already leaner than in the pictures?
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Well then good luck!
Are you already leaner than in the pictures?
thanks
yep, I'm at 9.6% right now ;)
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thanks
yep, I'm at 9.6% right now ;)
You will have to work a little bit on your posing though. ;D
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You will have to work a little bit on your posing though. ;D
HAHAHHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHA
no doubt ;D
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MemberX, aren't you like 6'6" or something? Of course you will need more cals than him. From the pics posted he looks better than you in both leanness and muscularity (from what I can see) so I don't know why you are arguing with him so vehemently.
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MemberX, aren't you like 6'6" or something? Of course you will need more cals than him. From the pics posted he looks better than you in both leanness and muscularity (from what I can see) so I don't know why you are arguing with him so vehemently.
We already settled that issue in my reply #230, but thanks ;)
Muscularity will be hard to compare between a 5'10'' dwarf and a 6'6'' giant. :D
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MemberX, aren't you like 6'6" or something? Of course you will need more cals than him. From the pics posted he looks better than you in both leanness and muscularity (from what I can see) so I don't know why you are arguing with him so vehemently.
why don't you check out my 18 inch arms and repost your post ?
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=234088.new#new (http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=234088.new#new)
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This sounds like a theory then and not actual experience ... am I right? ;D
As soon as you have managed to diet down with eating more and adding cardio, would be interested to hear.
i am detailing my actual experience that i stalled at around 9% on 1000 cals a day. what part of that do you not understand ???
i have said where i believe i went wrong, due to past experience.
have you dropped cals down to 1000 in a quest to get to the promised land of sub 5% bf? if not then your comments on my experience are theory also.
in fact all this thread proves, despite what you are claiming is that there is no universal method of diet that works for all, as we are all different.
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why don't you check out my 18 inch arms and repost your post ?
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=234088.new#new (http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=234088.new#new)
MemberX, aren't you like 6'6" or something? Of course you will need more cals than him. From the pics posted he looks better than you in both leanness and muscularity (from what I can see) so I don't know why you are arguing with him so vehemently.
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MemberX, aren't you like 6'6" or something? Of course you will need more cals than him. From the pics posted he looks better than you in both leanness and muscularity (from what I can see) so I don't know why you are arguing with him so vehemently.
I'm shaking in my size 14 EEE boots ::)
with my 18 inch arms :D
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i am detailing my actual experience that i stalled at around 9% on 1000 cals a day. what part of that do you not understand ???
i have said where i believe i went wrong, due to past experience.
have you dropped cals down to 1000 in a quest to get to the promised land of sub 5% bf? if not then your comments on my experience are theory also.
in fact all this thread proves, despite what you are claiming is that there is no universal method of diet that works for all, as we are all different.
Sorry, I understand that you couldn't get past 9% at 1000cals but then you said you assumed that you could do better with higher cals and cardio. That's what I meant with the theory. Or have you actually tried if this holds true?
You're right of course, I don't know yet what will happen in the next few weeks. Right now my caloric intake is still pretty stable, so we will see how low I have to go.
Maybe I should also repeat that I have one day in the week (or every other week, depending on progress) where I do not restrict my calories at all. That probably helps with not letting the body go into starvation mode.
I'm obnoxious because that's exactly what I want to find out: how applicable the principles are to the majority of people. Thanks for your input and I hope you're not offended. :)
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no, i'm not offended at all, threads like these are what advance bodybuilding theory and ideas. if there were more like them all over the net, i'm sure we would be a lot closer to knowing exactly what works and what does not.
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no, i'm not offended at all, threads like these are what advance bodybuilding theory and ideas. if there were more like them all over the net, i'm sure we would be a lot closer to knowing exactly what works and what does not.
Thanks a lot! When will you be making your next attempt at getting ripped?
You should make a progress thread, would be really interesting!
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Maybe Adonis can weigh in here, since he already has experience with the principles in contest mode. Do we have to change anything to get from let's say 8% to 5%?
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Just to give an idea what I eat on a day where calories are not restricted (usually on Sunday), that's what I ate today:
- omelette with 3 eggs, 20g of cheese and red peppers, 250ml carrot juice
- whole multi-grain bread with 80g of roast beef and tomatoes
- 50g protein shake, gelato sundae
- chilli cheese whopper, fries, chicken sticks with sour cream, brownie with ice
- 1lb tenderloin steak with peas, large beer, banana
All things I really love to eat (except for the protein shake, which I probably could have skipped).
In this case, I have to split the meals of course, just because I can't stomach that in one sitting.
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Thanks a lot! When will you be making your next attempt at getting ripped?
You should make a progress thread, would be really interesting!
in around 6 weeks, i'm finishing university, then hitting the booze for a week, picking up a few fat hoes, then a week to detox and back in the zone 8)
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in around 6 weeks, i'm finishing university, then hitting the booze for a week, picking up a few fat hoes, then a week to detox and back in the zone 8)
Haha, sounds awesome!
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My "Adonis Pronciples" diet:
Big Mac, fries, diet coke 2x/day, plus a protein shake or two to meet minimum protein requirements! :D
Haha, i prefer Burger King! Those "Big" Macs are just too small for teh muscle. ;D
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My "Adonis Pronciples" diet:
Big Mac, fries, diet coke 2x/day, plus a protein shake or two to meet minimum protein requirements! :D
looks like my principles :D
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Haha, i prefer Burger King! Those "Big" Macs are just too small for teh muscle. ;D
I have had about 6 double whoppers at one setting
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I have had about 6 double whoppers at one setting
Perfect! Now you just need to drop the fockin' cardio, start boozing it up and you can join the group. ;D
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Perfect! Now you just need to drop the fockin' cardio, start boozing it up and you can join the group. ;D
hahahahha maybe I'll look like most people on get big then ;D oh god
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Perfect! Now you just need to drop the fockin' cardio, start boozing it up and you can join the group. ;D
I think the myth of cardio in the adonis principles should be taken out
if it didn't work would people waste their time doing it?
would I?
would professionals?
just because some people are lazy and don't want to do it doesn't mean that it doesn't work ::)
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I think the myth of cardio in the adonis principles should be taken out
if it didn't work would people waste their time doing it?
would I?
would professionals?
just because some people are lazy and don't want to do it doesn't mean that it doesn't work ::)
Professionals must be taken out of the picture. I said that numerous times. I have no idea how taking the substances they take affect the principles.
Again, I don't claim that cardio is useless for burning calories. The principles also don't say that cardio is forbidden. If people have an easier time dieting down by eating more and doing 1h of cardio a day, that's fine. I just don't think it makes a significant difference for the purpose of maintaning as much muscle as possible at a certain rate of weight loss, as long as P1-P5 are met. I admit that I'm lazy, but that's not the reason for skipping cardio. The reason is, that in my case, without cardio actually works better.
Your case seems to be pretty similar to that of bigpanda. You said that you can eat twice as much when on 1h cardio per day. If this is true, it's probably easier for you to do cardio and eat more. However, to prove that cardio makes a significant difference, you would still have to do the following:
- perform a complete cutting diet (e.g. from 15% to 7%) meeting P1-P5 but with cardio,
- perform a complete cutting diet (e.g. from 15% to 7%) meeting P1-P5 without cardio.
Then you would have to compare the ratio of fat loss vs. muscle loss on both diets. I did that and in my case, not only was there no significant difference, but without cardio works even better.
I should also again repeat that I have one day in the week where I do not restrict my calories. That's maybe why I can still keep my calories at a resonable level during the week. If the loading days are really necessary however, I don't know, I've never tried to skip them completely.
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Professionals must be taken out of the picture. I said that numerous times. I have no idea how taking the substances they take affect the principles.
Again, I don't claim that cardio is useless for burning calories. The principles also don't say that cardio is forbidden. If people have an easier time dieting down by eating more and doing 1h of cardio a day, that's fine. I just don't think it makes a significant difference for the purpose of maintaning as much muscle as possible at a certain rate of weight loss, as long as P1-P5 are met. I admit that I'm lazy, but that's not the reason for skipping cardio. The reason is, that in my case, without cardio actually works better.
Your case seems to be pretty similar to that of bigpanda. You said that you can eat twice as much when on 1h cardio per day. If this is true, it's probably easier for you to do cardio and eat more. However, to prove that cardio makes a significant difference, you would still have to do the following:
- perform a complete cutting diet (e.g. from 15% to 7%) meeting P1-P5 but with cardio,
- perform a complete cutting diet (e.g. from 15% to 7%) meeting P1-P5 without cardio.
Then you would have to compare the ratio of fat loss vs. muscle loss on both diets. I did that and in my case, not only was there no significant difference, but without cardio works even better.
I should also again repeat that I have one day in the week where I do not restrict my calories. That's maybe why I can still keep my calories at a resonable level during the week. If the loading days are really necessary however, I don't know, I've never tried to skip them completely.
how about I make it easier for you and let you see who gets a better place in MR. Getbig, me or true adonis? ;)
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how about I make it easier for you and let you see who gets a better place in MR. Getbig, me or true adonis? ;)
Dude you have no muscle and you are skinny as hell. At least Apenis has some muscle you can see. Don't bother joining Mr. Getbig, go join a gym. Also, are you gay? You pose and look very gay. Also, where do you live? Are you the infamous Shadow.
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Dude you have no muscle and you are skinny as hell. At least Apenis has some muscle you can see. Don't bother joining Mr. Getbig, go join a gym. Also, are you gay? You pose and look very gay. Also, where do you live? Are you the infamous Shadow.
dude you're obsessed with me, you go around chasing me on every thread, are you a homo or what? :D
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how about I make it easier for you and let you see who gets a better place in MR. Getbig, me or true adonis? ;)
I'm pretty sure Adonis will approve of that challenge. ;D
However, I would still use the method that works better for me. My advantage is, I have already tried both. But as I said, it's possible that you have an easier time dieting down with yours. If that's the case, I wouldn't change it either if I were you.
Good luck again for the Mr. Getbig, may the best man win!
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My "Adonis Pronciples" diet:
Big Mac, fries, diet coke 2x/day, plus a protein shake or two to meet minimum protein requirements! :D
That basically matches P1 and P2. What do you think about the other principles and myths?
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Bump for Answers from:
Donkey Kong: Reply#27,
McFarland: Reply#137,
Deicide: Reply#141,
True Adonis: Reply#249,
Goatboy: Reply#265.
8)
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Maybe Adonis can weigh in here, since he already has experience with the principles in contest mode. Do we have to change anything to get from let's say 8% to 5%?
As long as you are in a deficit, length of time should eventually take care of it so little adjusting will be necessary. With that said, the approach that I lay out here should account for any adjustment in order to get to super low bodyfat:
I would start with 12-14 per current Bodyweight, and run it straight through. Obviously the longer adherence the greater the result. The ABSOLUTE lowest to go with calories should be 9 calories per bodyweight. Keep in mind that you should not at all have to go this low. Patience is a big factor in this. Most people think they have hit a sticking point, when in fact it is not the case at all. Running 11-12 all the way through should be sufficient to get EXTREMELY ripped.
Also, every 1-2 months or so, adjust your figures to reflect your current bodyweight. So for example, if I weigh 180 lbs from the start I would then be eating about 2160. 2 months later, lets say I weigh 170 so lets adjust it to 2040.
You may not have to adjust it at all if you are progressing just fine. Play it be body and sight.
I also have a few other little tricks I shall post about. Common sense things really, but little tricks to go deeper into a deficit without sacrificing hunger or muscle for that matter.
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As long as you are in a deficit, length of time should eventually take care of it so little adjusting will be necessary. With that said, the approach that I lay out here should account for any adjustment in order to get to super low bodyfat:
I would start with 12-14 per current Bodyweight, and run it straight through. Obviously the longer adherence the greater the result. The ABSOLUTE lowest to go with calories should be 9 calories per bodyweight. Keep in mind that you should not at all have to go this low. Patience is a big factor in this. Most people think they have hit a sticking point, when in fact it is not the case at all. Running 11-12 all the way through should be sufficient to get EXTREMELY ripped.
Also, every 1-2 months or so, adjust your figures to reflect your current bodyweight. So for example, if I weigh 180 lbs from the start I would then be eating about 2160. 2 months later, lets say I weigh 170 so lets adjust it to 2040.
You may not have to adjust it at all if you are progressing just fine. Play it be body and sight.
I also have a few other little tricks I shall post about. Common sense things really, but little tricks to go deeper into a deficit without sacrificing hunger or muscle for that matter.
Adonis your principles don't account for the slowing down of metabolism because of the decreased amount of food consumption
fat loss plateaus
OR
the starvation response :-\
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Adonis your principles don't account for the slowing down of metabolism because of the decreased amount of food consumption
fat loss plateaus
OR
the starvation response :-\
Hence you have just mentioned 3 myths.
1. Decreased Metabolism
2. fat loss plateau
3. Starvation response.
Especially number 3.
Eating 2000 or so calories a day is hardly starving.
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Hence you have just mentioned 3 myths.
1. Decreased Metabolism
2. fat loss plateau
3. Starvation response.
Especially number 3.
Eating 2000 or so calories a day is hardly starving.
1) when you eat less your body burns less calories and not only due to thermic effect of food. The bigger the calorie drop is and
the longer it is maintained the bigger the drop in metabolism will be
2) fat loss plateaus are pretty real, ask the guys who are stuck at losing those last 10 pounds of fat to get ripped and month after
month they can't despite diet and cardio
3) the starvation response is no myth, when people don't eat enough food, their body starts so save calories taken in as fat, decreasing metabolism drastically, and giving up muscle mass instead of fat, thus a person is left with a more poor body composition than when they first
started and a higher bodyfat%, this explains why people can't get sixpack abs starving themselves
but you're right for an average person 2000 calories would not be starving, for me it would be since I eat 4200 calories everyday just to maintain my weight
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As long as you are in a deficit, length of time should eventually take care of it so little adjusting will be necessary. With that said, the approach that I lay out here should account for any adjustment in order to get to super low bodyfat:
I would start with 12-14 per current Bodyweight, and run it straight through. Obviously the longer adherence the greater the result. The ABSOLUTE lowest to go with calories should be 9 calories per bodyweight. Keep in mind that you should not at all have to go this low. Patience is a big factor in this. Most people think they have hit a sticking point, when in fact it is not the case at all. Running 11-12 all the way through should be sufficient to get EXTREMELY ripped.
Also, every 1-2 months or so, adjust your figures to reflect your current bodyweight. So for example, if I weigh 180 lbs from the start I would then be eating about 2160. 2 months later, lets say I weigh 170 so lets adjust it to 2040.
You may not have to adjust it at all if you are progressing just fine. Play it be body and sight.
I also have a few other little tricks I shall post about. Common sense things really, but little tricks to go deeper into a deficit without sacrificing hunger or muscle for that matter.
Currently I'm taking in aprox. 13kcals / lb BW over the course of one week. This already includes the one day a week I eat as much as I want, which accounts for twice of what I eat at a normal day. So on a normal day I eat about 12, on the "load" day I eat about 23. I'm not sure if the load days are necessary or beneficial. I basically do it out of convenience (going out with friends, parties, e.g.), to piss off my friends, and because I'm a pig and need to stuff myself once a week. ;D
Do you think loading days are beneficial?
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Currently I'm taking in aprox. 13kcals / lb BW over the course of one week. This already includes the one day a week I eat as much as I want, which accounts for twice of what I eat at a normal day. So on a normal day I eat about 12, on the "load" day I eat about 23. I'm not sure if the load days are necessary or beneficial. I basically do it out of convenience (going out with friends, parties, e.g.), to piss off my friends, and because I'm a pig and need to stuff myself once a week. ;D
Do you think loading days are beneficial?
Since your calories even out in the long term I would say it has no benefit as far as how you look. Surely it is satisfying and it does have a great psychological benefit! You may also feel more "energized" on those days.
There is evidence of short term release of certain hormones also.
However, in the long term, it shouldn`t matter too much. Both approaches are sound.
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Thanks TA! For all the illiterates, I have made a picture that says it all. ;D
(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=222371.0;attach=275476;image)
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Thanks TA! For all the illiterates, I have made a picture that says it all. ;D
(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=222371.0;attach=275476;image)
ok that's retarded
why are you guys against cardio so much? :-\
two ways to lose fat
eat less
move more
the more cardio you do, the more fat you will lose, if you get your calorie deficit in your diet right
and because people are too LAZY and don't want to do cardio doesn't mean that it doesn't work ;)
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Wouldn't the cardio frequency/duration depend on how much muscle you currently have?
I've always assumed the more muscle mass you have the less cardio you have to do, simply because the muscle is churning off the calories you eat to maintain itself.
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So essentially if you have alot of muscle to begin with you won't need much cardio to burn the bodyfat. Just workout and do your full-time job (provided you have one, this is Getbig)
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So essentially if you have alot of muscle to begin with you won't need much cardio to burn the bodyfat. Just workout and do your full-time job (provided you have one, this is Getbig)
I need to see some studies on this
I doubt 1 pound of muscle burns 69 calories as Milos Sarcev claims
muscle doesn't burn calories until you start using it....by MOVING ;)
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ok that's retarded
why are you guys against cardio so much? :-\
two ways to lose fat
eat less
move more
the more cardio you do, the more fat you will lose, if you get your calorie deficit in your diet right
and because people are too LAZY and don't want to do cardio doesn't mean that it doesn't work ;)
Just look at the hamster and see yourself. :D
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So essentially if you have alot of muscle to begin with you won't need much cardio to burn the bodyfat. Just workout and do your full-time job (provided you have one, this is Getbig)
Exactly my point. That should be enough to provide the positive effects assigned to cardio (other than calorie burning during the cardio, which can easily be accommodated by just eating a little less).
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Since it's pig out day, this is what I'm eating right now for lunch.
Wiener Schnitzel baby, if it fits the plate ... Queer! :D
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Do you keep your cals constant on off-days or lower them?
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Do you keep your cals constant on off-days or lower them?
You mean lower the cals of my pig-out days in the course of the cutting diet?
I honestly don't know. I just eat as much as I like. I think it automatically went down somewhat during the diet. It's about 2 times of what I eat during the week.
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Since it's pig out day, this is what I'm eating right now for lunch.
Wiener Schnitzel baby, if it fits the plate ... Queer! :D
dude you still have your salad? ;D
I diet on brownies lol, having some chocolate right now
and 4 weeks out of the Mr. Getbig I was 13% bodyfat AHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA ...... :'( :'( :'(
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dude you still have your salad? ;D
Of course, it's supposed to be a healthy diet. ;D
I diet on brownies lol, having some chocolate right now
and 4 weeks out of the Mr. Getbig I was 13% bodyfat AHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA ...... :'( :'( :'(
Haha, those brownies were good!
Although I had a hard time downing them after that deep fried fucker and the taters. :D
What's your BF right now? How many pounds to lose?
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Of course, it's supposed to be a healthy diet. ;D
Haha, those brownies were good!
Although I had a hard time downing them after that deep fried fucker and the taters. :D
What's your BF right now? How much pounds to lose?
I have no idea, but I'm gonna be in shape by that time....hopefully 8)
LMAO my parents think that turkey breasts and vegetables and rice is not normal
we'll just say they know nothing about nutrition :-\
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Is the standard BS True Donkey posting any better than the guy on the grapefruit, banana and egg diet? He had more muscle also.
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I have no idea, but I'm gonna be in shape by that time....hopefully 8)
LMAO my parents think that turkey breasts and vegetables and rice is not normal
we'll just say they know nothing about nutrition :-\
Well I'm the wrong one to argue with here, I don't eat turkey breast unless it's deep fried (Turkey Schnitzel, tastes great too) or smothered in rich gravy. ;D
Rice and veggies are OK of course...
... if deep fried or smothered in rich gravy! ;D
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Is the standard BS True Donkey posting any better than the guy on the grapefruit, banana and egg diet? He had more muscle also.
Have you seen the latest pics of TA? I would say they're pretty damn impressive.
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Well I'm the wrong one to argue with here, I don't eat turkey breast unless it's deep fried (Turkey Schnitzel, tastes great too) or smothered in rich gravy. ;D
Rice and veggies are OK of course...
... if deep fried or smothered in rich gravy! ;D
yeah but don't your parents piss you off
when I eat fucking chocolate bars "oh why you eating that, it's not good for you"
when I eat vegetables and chicken breasts "oh why you eating that, WHYYY??? WHYYY?"
like seriously...FUCK OFF >:(
why are you watching what I eat anyways?
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yeah but don't your parents piss you off
when I eat fucking chocolate bars "oh why you eating that, it's not good for you"
when I eat vegetables and chicken breasts "oh why you eating that, WHYYY??? WHYYY?"
like seriously...FUCK OFF >:(
why are you watching what I eat anyways?
How old are you? Are you living with your parents?
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Have you seen the latest pics of TA? I would say they're pretty damn impressive.
No...but the user on the other diet was more bulked, dry and impressive. TD looked depleted from the last photos I saw.
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No...but the user on the other diet was more bulked, dry and impressive. TD looked depleted from the last photos I saw.
I guess we'll see when Getbig III is over. Both TA and Johnny Falcon are entering AFAIK.
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Last meal of the day. Might have overdone it a little today, but I was training legs and I'm fockin' hungry! ;D
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wavelength, I'm assuming the recent avatar shots you have been displaying are your "after photos" and your current condition, do you have any before photos prior to becoming an adonis prinicipalian?
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wavelength, I'm assuming the recent avatar shots you have been displaying are your "after photos" and your current condition, do you have any before photos prior to becoming an adonis prinicipalian?
This is the first cutting diet where I got rid of all myths. You can see my progress in this thread:
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=222371.0 (http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=222371.0)
I'm still not where I want to be, another few pounds to lose.
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Agree!!... Law of Thermodynamics.. No such thing as energy lost..just transferred... Expend more energy than taken in.. or Consistently stay @ a caloric deficit.. The math will eventually do the work for u.... ie. I like 2 do cardio just so I can eat more
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Agree!!... Law of Thermodynamics.. No such thing as energy lost..just transferred... Expend more energy than taken in.. or Consistently stay @ a caloric deficit.. The math will eventually do the work for u.... ie. I like 2 do cardio just so I can eat more
Cardio is fine if it makes dieting easier of course. I'm just sick and tired of running in a treadmill for an hour every day. Nowadays I relax in the evening with a fine glass of red wine. :)
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Cardio is fine if it makes dieting easier of course. I'm just sick and tired of running in a treadmill for an hour every day. Nowadays I relax in the evening with a fine glass of red wine. :)
Dont run, walk. And do it first thing in the morning, and first thing postworkout. DO NOT increase food intake because of the extra caloric expenditure from those two cardio sessions. Increase the % of protein(meat) in your diet. Increase intake of fibrous vegetables. :)
Bodybuilders diet and do cardio in a certain way for a reason.. It works !
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Dont run, walk. And do it first thing in the morning, and first thing postworkout. DO NOT increase food intake because of the extra caloric expenditure from those two cardio sessions. Increase the % of protein(meat) in your diet. Increase intake of fibrous vegetables. :)
Bodybuilders diet and do cardio in a certain way for a reason.. It works !
Well it doesn't for me. I tried diffferent forms of cardio (slow, middle, fast), the only thing it did for me was burn some calories. My results (ratio of fat loss vs. muscle loss at the same rate of weight loss) are actually better without cardio. Regarding protein intake, the 1g/lb LBM I take in now is more than enough anyway, IMO.
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Well it doesn't for me. I tried diffferent forms of cardio (slow, middle, fast), the only thing it did for me was burn some calories. My results (ratio of fat loss vs. muscle loss at the same rate of weight loss) are actually better without cardio. Regarding protein intake, the 1g/lb LBM I take in now is more than enough anyway, IMO.
Over time it makes a difference. as a natural, you wont really notice any big differences. But it does help. Low intensity cardio at those times are great for gh release, insulin sensitivity, and overall metabolism. Its not supposed to be a huge caloric expenditure.
Higher % meat in your diet = more calories expended, with the same activity level (dietary thermogensis).
for example... two diet, of equal caloric value. two men with bodies that are exact replicas of each other. both men have the same exact same activity level throughout the diet. Ones diet is 60% protein, 30%carbs, 10% fat...while the other ones diet is 33% protein, 33%carbs, 33% fats. The guy with the diet higher in protein will lose more fat faster, as a result of the thermic effect of protein (about 30-40% of protein calories ingested).
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Over time it makes a difference. as a natural, you wont really notice any big differences. But it does help. Low intensity cardio at those times are great for gh release, insulin sensitivity, and overall metabolism. Its not supposed to be a huge caloric expenditure.
I tried low intensity cardio. If I don't notice any difference, it doesn't make any. In my case, I noticed a difference, my diet was worse with cardio. Everything else is just theory.
Higher % meat in your diet = more calories expended, with the same activity level (dietary thermogensis).
for example... two diet, of equal caloric value. two men with bodies that are exact replicas of each other. both men have the same exact activity level throughout the diet. Ones diet is 60% protein, 30%carbs, 10% fat...while the other ones diet is 33% protein, 33%carbs, 33% fats. The guy with the diet higher in protein will lose more fat faster, as a result of the thermic effect of protein (about 30-40% of protein calories ingested).
I never claimed there is no need for a certain amount of protein. But you will agree that there is a lower and an upper end to what makes sense. A diet consisting of protein only will not work just like a diet with no protein at all. I know for a fact that I need more than 0.5g/lb of LBM, because I tried to go lower than that. Im also sure that I don't need significantly more than 1g/lb, since I also tried that and got bad results because of the carbs and fat I had to sacrifice. You will be able to find a nutrition theory for just about any range of recommended protein percentage. I prefer to go by my own experience.
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Im not saying anybody needs any certain amount of protein. All I am telling you is that a higher % of protein in your diet = more weight loss. Without any additional activity or reduction in caloric intake. Thats a big flaw in what your selling.
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Im not saying anybody needs any certain amount of protein. All I am telling you is that a higher % of protein in your diet = more weight loss. Without any additional activity or reduction in caloric intake. Thats a big flaw in what your selling.
We have to be more specific here. The effectiveness of a cutting diet I would define as the ratio of fat loss / muscle loss at a certain rate of weight loss. Let's say on my current diet I lose 1lb of total body weight a week and the ratio would be 3/1. The experiment would now be to repeat the diet and every time manipulate the protein percentage while keeping the rate of weight loss at 1lb/week for each repetition, and check the ratio. The total amount of calories to make that happen is completely irrelevant in this scenario. You may be right and I could take in slightly more calories on a higher percentage of protein while still losing 1lb/week (same as keeping the calories constant and losing slightly more). But that has nothing to do with the aforementioned effectiveness of the diet. You must agree that in this series of experiments, there will be an optimal range of protein percentage. Otherwise, everyone would just eat 100% protein for a cutting diet. The only difference in the principles is that they don't define a percentage of protein relative to the total caloric intake but rather a value relative to LBM (which I feel makes more sense). However, since the caloric intake will not change that much (if you start at a reasonable amount of bodyfat) in the course of the diet, it doesn't make a big difference, especially since the value specified is high enough to easily accomodate this factor.
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Allot of people diet on 100% meat +veggies. In fact its pretty common among pre contest bodybuilders. They might go 2,3,4,5, or even 6 days of protein + veggies, then have a carb up day.
IMO, this is the absolute most effective way to diet for fat loss.
When trying to lose bodyfat, you want your body to use bodyfat for as large a % of your daily caloric expenditure as possible without using any muscle tissue. Since carbs and fats are energy, when you cut them out, all energy must come from fat. (except for some glucose demands... which would vary depending on activity throughout the day..).
So what you do is go zero carbs and fats, and eat just enough protein to avoid catabolism. Along with fibrous vegetables ("negative calories", dietary fiber, lower insulin levels, tons of vitamins minerals and phytonutrients.), and some fish oil/evening primrose (EFA, boost metabolism, protein sparing, boost insulin sensitivity), and thats it. Carb ups as often as needed to sustain optimal thyroid and cortisol levels.
That = fastest possible fat loss with minimal muscle loss.
You can call that "The Tbombz Diet Principles." ;)
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You mean lower the cals of my pig-out days in the course of the cutting diet?
I honestly don't know. I just eat as much as I like. I think it automatically went down somewhat during the diet. It's about 2 times of what I eat during the week.
No, I meant on your off-days of working out, not on your off-days of dieting. In other words eat 2000 cals a day working out and 1500 on days you don't. I know you didn't count cals but on estimation?
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Allot of people diet on 100% meat +veggies. In fact its pretty common among pre contest bodybuilders. They might go 2,3,4,5, or even 6 days of protein + veggies, then have a carb up day.
IMO, this is the absolute most effective way to diet for fat loss.
When trying to lose bodyfat, you want your body to use bodyfat for as large a % of your daily caloric expenditure as possible without using any muscle tissue. Since carbs and fats are energy, when you cut them out, all energy must come from fat. (except for some glucose demands... which would vary depending on activity throughout the day..).
So what you do is go zero carbs and fats, and eat just enough protein to avoid catabolism. Along with fibrous vegetables ("negative calories", dietary fiber, lower insulin levels, tons of vitamins minerals and phytonutrients.), and some fish oil/evening primrose (EFA, boost metabolism, protein sparing, boost insulin sensitivity), and thats it. Carb ups as often as needed to sustain optimal thyroid and cortisol levels.
That = fastest possible fat loss with minimal muscle loss.
You can call that "The Tbombz Diet Principles." ;)
I know of BB diets which are high in protein and fat, but none that would seriously promote eating let's say 95% protein. In any case you would also have to count the carbups and calculate the average percentage.
I'm not so sure on how effective diets like the "Palumbo" diet are for naturals. Apart from M1, (extremely) low-carb goes against P2, P4, and M3. In my case, I'm not able to train effectively without carbs and also would have to substitute healthy fruit with supplements. It maybe a good way to lose weight fast but the ratio of fat loss vs. muscle loss was horrendous when I tried to go low carb. So I cannot confirm the nutritional theory you layed out, and I'm sure I could come up with a different theory supporting my experience. That's why I said that this thread should be about experience only and not about nutrition science.
Your input is appreciated nonetheless, have you actually tried both methods, changing only the percentage of protein between the two cutting diets while still adhering to all principles P1-P5 in both cases?
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No, I meant on your off-days of working out, not on your off-days of dieting. In other words eat 2000 cals a day working out and 1500 on days you don't. I know you didn't count cals but on estimation?
There's no difference by principle. I tend to be a little more hungrier on workout days in the evening and therefore eat (a bigger) snack, but that's not always the case.
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Oh boy....
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Oh boy....
Haha, works for me, and better than any other diet I have ever tried. :)
Maybe it doesn't work for everybody but IMO many people don't even dare to try, because they're indoctrinated with all the nutritional myths.
Even if it was a little worse than the classical BB method, I'm done with stinky tuna, horse grub, and rat poison. :D
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Bump.
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wavelength-yes other people hav tried the TA principles, see this thread: http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=154295.0
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wavelength-yes other people hav tried the TA principles, see this thread: http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=154295.0
Wrong. MattC and I are enemies. I never helped him, nor did he adhere or follow anything. Notice that the liar is banned for good from this site.
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...
I also have a few other little tricks I shall post about. Common sense things really, but little tricks to go deeper into a deficit without sacrificing hunger or muscle for that matter.
Haha, thanks Adonis for bumping the thread! :)
What about the little tricks you mentioned?
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wave you seem to be one of those few........
pre/post nutrition doesn't work
heavy weights dont work
cardio doesn't work
i see a trend .....
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wave you seem to be one of those few........
pre/post nutrition doesn't work
heavy weights dont work
cardio doesn't work
i see a trend .....
I never said heavy weights don't work.
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I never said heavy weights don't work.
1 down 2 to go ;D
i knew i'd break you. ;)
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1 down 2 to go ;D
i knew i'd break you. ;)
I also never said cardio doesn't work. It burns calories. Same effect as eating less.
However, eating less actually beats cardio in my experience.
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Without going into how you substantiate your position on your dieting principles, consider this.
A diet is only effective if you can use it consistently.
How many bodybuilders can follow these principles consistently enough to reach their goals? How many could follow Adonis principles consistently enough to reach goals?
I submit that although your principles might yield a "per day" result superior to an Adonis type diet, your diet is unwieldy and requires a commitment that leads to failure. Most cannot follow this plan for months on end, thus, they end up cheating. Then, they feel a sense of failure, further demolishing their ego.
The adonis diet accounts for this factor.
I liken it to the "hare vs tortoise" fable. Your diet would be the hare. Adonis, the tortoise. Yes, yours runs faster, but it burns people out. Adonis runs slower, but his allows folks to be consistent.
The ideal diet then becomes the one that best caters to your willpower. If you can admit your own weaknesses and come to terms with them, you can be more successful. Blindly hitting your head against the wall trying to follow a rigid bodybuilding diet can lead to a repeated spiral of failure.
I for one, like succeeding. And if it means I have to take my time, then so be it. I'm also a patient man.
PS: I think you over-estimate thermic effects of protein. Yes, there's that one study we all love to cite. But on a long-term high protein diet, the body up-regulates digestive ability with respect to protein, thus eventually negating much of the thermic effect. If it were otherwise, man would not have evolved as a meat-eater -- meat-eating man would have died eons ago due to malnutrition brought on by thermic-wasting effects.
You are correct and here is why.
The Thermic effect of Protein is about 10-30 percent depending on what kind of meat or protein.
Ok so lets take 20 percent of that as an average.
So that means 20 percent of the calories in the Protein you eat is going to be burned in digestion. So lets say you eat, 160 grams of protein which is 640 calories. Now lets take 20 percent away from the 640 which is 128 calories.
So the TEF benefit you get will be 128 calories. Not much at all.
Did you know that reading a book or typing on this Getbig forum will cause you to burn more than 128 calories!
As you can see, the TEF is pointless to even bother with.
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You are correct and here is why.
The Thermic effect of Protein is about 10-30 percent depending on what kind of meat or protein.
Ok so lets take 20 percent of that as an average.
So that means 20 percent of the calories in the Protein you eat is going to be burned in digestion. So lets say you eat, 160 grams of protein which is 640 calories. Now lets take 20 percent away from the 640 which is 128 calories.
So the TEF benefit you get will be 128 calories. Not much at all.
Did you know that reading a book or typing on this Getbig forum will cause you to burn more than 128 calories!
As you can see, the TEF is pointless to even bother with.
With this said,
This is one way to delve a bit deeper into a calorie deficit albeit slightly.
Drinking cold sodas or Ice Water can also delve you into a little deeper deficit.
Consider this:
Let's figure out exactly what you're burning when you drink a 16-ounce (0.5 liter) glass of ice water:
* The temperature of ice water can be estimated at zero degrees Celsius.
* Body temperature can be estimated at 37 degrees Celsius.
* It takes 1 calorie to raise 1 gram of water 1 degree Celsius.
* There are 473.18 grams in 16 fluid ounces of water.
Let's say you adhere to the "eight 8-ounce glasses of water a day" nutritional recommendation. In 64 ounces of water, there are 1,892.72 grams. So to warm up all that water in the course of a day, your body burns about 70 Calories. And over time, that 70 Calories a day adds up. So, while you definitely shouldn't depend on ice water consumption to replace exercise or a healthy diet, drinking cold water instead of warm water does, in fact, burn some extra Calories!
So each gallon of iced water or soda you drink that is chilled, you burn about 140 calories. Drink 2 gallons and it will be 280 calories. That is equivalent to a quite vigorous hour long cardio session.
Drink away your Cardio!!!!
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I think Adonis does this just for the controversy.
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Haha, thanks Adonis for bumping the thread! :)
What about the little tricks you mentioned?
I posted 2 above ^
I have Many Many More and I will post them!
Pretty neat things eh? Especially if you employ them all. You can really get ripped.
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I think Adonis does this just for the controversy.
I don`t. Hope this helps. You can choose to remain ignorant if you like. Does not bother me one bit. Its the same thing religious people do. Blind to the facts and science.
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I think Adonis does this just for the controversy.
I think Adonis does this to help idiots who don't know how to do it right ::)
as so many people on getbig are OBESE and in DENIAL
they have "muscle under fat" ...ya ok ::)
I don't know why he bothers, I wouldn't waste my time arguing over FACTS with a bunch of retards here on getbig
maybe he enjoys a challenge and educating idiots :)
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With this said,
This is one way to delve a bit deeper into a calorie deficit albeit slightly.
Drinking cold sodas or Ice Water can also delve you into a little deeper deficit.
Consider this:
Let's figure out exactly what you're burning when you drink a 16-ounce (0.5 liter) glass of ice water:
* The temperature of ice water can be estimated at zero degrees Celsius.
* Body temperature can be estimated at 37 degrees Celsius.
* It takes 1 calorie to raise 1 gram of water 1 degree Celsius.
* There are 473.18 grams in 16 fluid ounces of water.
Let's say you adhere to the "eight 8-ounce glasses of water a day" nutritional recommendation. In 64 ounces of water, there are 1,892.72 grams. So to warm up all that water in the course of a day, your body burns about 70 Calories. And over time, that 70 Calories a day adds up. So, while you definitely shouldn't depend on ice water consumption to replace exercise or a healthy diet, drinking cold water instead of warm water does, in fact, burn some extra Calories!
So each gallon of iced water or soda you drink that is chilled, you burn about 140 calories. Drink 2 gallons and it will be 280 calories. That is equivalent to a quite vigorous hour long cardio session.
Drink away your Cardio!!!!
i'm sure i have a study that backs this one up.
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I think Adonis does this just for the controversy.
I couldn't care less. I just do what works for me.
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I couldn't care less. I just do what works for me.
Eating clean works much better for me.
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I posted 2 above ^
I have Many Many More and I will post them!
Pretty neat things eh? Especially if you employ them all. You can really get ripped.
Thanks!
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Eating clean works much better for me.
No such thing as "eating clean".
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Eating clean works much better for me.
Eating "clean" (whatever that means) fits all 5 principles (as long as protein intake and basic nutritional needs are met), so you are in fact a follower. ;D
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No such thing as "eating clean".
adonis you mentioned in another thread a while back that you also used your workouts to regulate the diet /fat loss - regular as clock work you said.
can you eleborate on this? do you do a set number or reps/sets/weight and stick with it throughout? or what?
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adonis you mentioned in another thread a while back that you also used your workouts to regulate the diet /fat loss - regular as clock work you said.
can you eleborate on this? do you do a set number or reps/sets/weight and stick with it throughout? or what?
You will have to pull that thread up as I don`t recall it. I don`t have a set schedule as far as attending the gym goes. I usually make it there 2 or 3 days a week. Sometimes it is 1 day a week when I am busy or just a bit lazy although this is very rare, sometimes 4. I do my body in this order each on a different day: Chest, Back, Shoulders, Bis and Tris, Legs
I don`t have a set number of sets but its usually around 10-16 or so. I just gauge it by whenever time runs out (I go to the gym about 9 Pm and it closes at 9:45 Pm, so whatever I can do in 45 minutes) or reps but I usually do 3 or 4 sets per exercise. I start with a weight I can get about 10 reps with. Then 6 reps. Then 4-2 reps. The final set I then do a drop set until failure or I pick a light weight and try for 20-50 reps or until I give out.
That is the extent of it. :-\
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Ideally, I would like to train 4-5 days a week though.
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You will have to pull that thread up as I don`t recall it. I don`t have a set schedule as far as attending the gym goes. I usually make it there 2 or 3 days a week. Sometimes it is 1 day a week when I am busy or just a bit lazy although this is very rare, sometimes 4. I do my body in this order each on a different day: Chest, Back, Shoulders, Bis and Tris, Legs
I don`t have a set number of sets or reps but I usually do 3 or 4 sets. I start with a weight I can get about 10 reps with. Then 6 reps. Then 4-2 reps. The final set I then do a drop set until failure or I pick a light weight and try for 20-50 reps or until I give out.
That is the extent of it. :-\
i was thinking you were talking about the total load moved for the workout. and maintaining it would help guarentee as much muscle as possible. i.e. if you normally do 10 reps for 4 sets, then after a month or 2 of dieting you can only manage 3 sets of 10 and 1 set of 6, justy add another set of 4 - total work is the same - hence another variable taken care of.
something i have been toying/thinking about.
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Ideally, I would like to train 4-5 days a week though.
wouldn't we all. 8)
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So, you will take note of the thermic effect of cold water, but not the thermic effect of protein?
hahahahah.
dude... come on.
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So, you will take note of the thermic effect of cold water, but not the thermic effect of protein?
hahahahah.
dude... come on.
Did you not read where I said that you could include it as well?
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Did you not read where I said that you could include it as well?
Go read my post on the last page. Tbombz diet principles, as I called them. Your diet is effective, in of that it creates a caloric defecit. But Im sorry my diet completely owns yours. ;D
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BOOOMMMM :D
Allot of people diet on 100% meat +veggies. In fact its pretty common among pre contest bodybuilders. They might go 2,3,4,5, or even 6 days of protein + veggies, then have a carb up day.
IMO, this is the absolute most effective way to diet for fat loss.
When trying to lose bodyfat, you want your body to use bodyfat for as large a % of your daily caloric expenditure as possible without using any muscle tissue. Since carbs and fats are energy, when you cut them out, all energy must come from fat. (except for some glucose demands... which would vary depending on activity throughout the day..).
So what you do is go zero carbs and fats, and eat just enough protein to avoid catabolism. Along with fibrous vegetables ("negative calories", dietary fiber, lower insulin levels, tons of vitamins minerals and phytonutrients.), and some fish oil/evening primrose (EFA, boost metabolism, protein sparing, boost insulin sensitivity), and thats it. Carb ups as often as needed to sustain optimal thyroid and cortisol levels.
That = fastest possible fat loss with minimal muscle loss.
You can call that "The Tbombz Diet Principles." ;)
whats the goal of any 'fat loss diet ? to lose fat as quickly as possible without losing muscle. what prevents muscle loss ? protein intake. what prevents fat loss? calorie intake. to lose fat as quickly as possible you want to take in as low calories as possible, while eating enough protein to prevent muscle loss.
my diet >>>>> your diet.
:-*
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BOOOMMMM :D
whats the goal of any 'fat loss diet ? to lose fat as quickly as possible without losing muscle. what prevents muscle loss ? protein intake. what prevents fat loss? calorie intake. to lose fat as quickly as possible you want to take in as low calories as possible, while eating enough protein to prevent muscle loss.
my diet >>>>> your diet.
:-*
I think I should tell you that carbs are more muscle sparring than protein candizzle.....
take in as low calories as possible and eating lots of protein?
you do know that on a low carb diet atleast 30% of weight loss comes from muscle right?
that's besides the fooling water loss
so... you basically have a starvation diet on your hands :D
last time I checked ANOREXIC people didn't have a very good body composition :-\
I don't know if you have tried it or not...but do try that
taking in as low calories as possible...and all protein
I'd love to see how long you can stick to it
chances are no more than 3 days max
I wouldn't be able to eat like that for 2 days........but that's fine, me and Adonis have our ways and you have yours
we get ripped on icecream and chocolate while you eat your nice tuna fish ....packed in water...for all your meals....for months ;)
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I think I should tell you that carbs are more muscle sparring than protein candizzle.....
insulin inhibits gluconeogensis TO A DEGREE, but it also inhibits lipolysis.
I don't know if you have tried it or not...but do try that
taking in as low calories as possible...and all protein
I'd love to see how long you can stick to it
chances are no more than 3 days max
its called willpower. youll never make it as a bodybuilder without willpower. most bodybuilders could eat 100% protein and veggies for months on end - no prolblem - if it is yeilding the results.
fastest possible fat loss without muscle loss. thats the subject at hand.
ask me about contest prep and thats a different story.
adonis is correct that the human body can utilize any kind of food. but he takes that as = no such thing as junk fod. absolutely incorrect. now there might be some truth to the fact that the glycemic index is not as important as many think it is. but differences in dietary fat are tremendous. thinking the fat you get from a whopper and the fat you get from salmon are equal is completely absolutely falso. thinking that a calorie is a calorie is absolutely totally false.
please, not trying to be arrogant, but dont ever argue with anything i post. that doesnt go for you onlly, but for about 98% of the people here.... with exceptions for necrosis, van bilderass, emmortal, 4thad, overload, arnoldjr, abc123, milos sarcev, disgusted, possibly gh15, quickerblade... and thats about it. (i may have left some out)
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Yes. That's right. The body can adapt to digest protein so as to decrease lost calories due to digestion. Enzymatic up-regulation, improved active transport across gut mucosal...all well documented.
On the other hand, there is no way to compensate for ice in the body. The body must heat it up. This takes energy. And it takes as much energy as is needed. Adonis laid out the math. A calorie is simply the amount of energy required to raise 1 gram of water by 1 degree celsius.
I'm not saying the body can completely negate the thermic effect of food digestion. That's ludicrous. I simply pointed out that after, say, 16 weeks on a high protein, low carb diet, you can't count on losing 1/4 of ingested protein calories to digestive processes. The body is more malleable than that. You know that too -- I've read your posts and you know a thing or two.
I also gave your diet cred. No doubt it will work. I just think you make it harder than it has to be. Not harder in terms of thinking or prep -- harder in terms of staying consistent and true to the plan. Are we people, or robots? You may have the self-discipline to practice what you preach 52 weeks a year. I certainly can't follow your guidelines. If I were making tons of money as a pro football player, sure. But I'm not. I'm just an average Joe with a job. I need something a little more like me, and a little less gung-ho. I'm sure there's a guy or two on this board who'll agree with me.
Again, your plan will work. And yes, there's a thermic effect to protein digestion. I just think you over-state the benefits of both and fail to highlight the drawbacks of the former.
i have no argument for you. good post.
your way of doing things is more for somebody who isnt really interested in the lifestyle. youd make a good personal trainer.
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A diet consisting of protein only will not work
this is the idea i am arguing against. protein only DOES work. very efficiently.
it seems that today in bodybuilding you have two sides - high fat and high carb.
to me, both make no sense (for a fat loss diet).
both carbs and fats both inhibit the utilization of subcutaneous adipose stores.
proteins do not (well.. they do in a way.. kind of..partially..only in excess... lol.. nevermind.. just stick with "they do not" )
certain carbs, like green leafy fibrous veggies - have fat loss benefits.
certain fats, like omega 3 (preferably epa/dha ) and omega 6 (only gla) - have fat loss benefits.
in those two macro groups, any intake other than those listed above, does not make sense (if looking for fastest possible fat loss...)
for protein intake, you want to intake enought to cover gluconeogensis(avoid catabolism), but not enough to slow down lipolysis.
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fastest possible fat loss without muscle loss. thats the subject at hand.
ask me about contest prep and thats a different story.
adonis is correct that the human body can utilize any kind of food. but he takes that as = no such thing as junk fod. absolutely incorrect. now there might be some truth to the fact that the glycemic index is not as important as many think it is. but differences in dietary fat are tremendous. thinking the fat you get from a whopper and the fat you get from salmon are equal is completely absolutely falso. thinking that a calorie is a calorie is absolutely totally false.
please, not trying to be arrogant, but dont ever argue with anything i post. that doesnt go for you onlly, but for about 98% of the people here.... with exceptions for necrosis, van bilderass, emmortal, 4thad, overload, arnoldjr, abc123, milos sarcev, disgusted, possibly gh15, quickerblade... and thats about it. (i may have left some out)
::) ::) ::)
I'll argue with what ever I want candy
give me an example of how much protein, carb, fat would be in "candizzle diet"
and the amount of calories...estimate
fat=fat....fat from salmon and fat from a burger are the same....both 9 calories per gram
a calorie ...IS a calorie
yes you know alot about steroids and all that shit....
but you're wrong about this, plus drug users don't need protein to keep their muscle the steroids will do that for them :D
and don't buy too much into that Milos Sarcev bullshit pumping up and choking down a 1500 calorie shake in your workout is not gonna do shit for your muscles besides
make you fat
every now and then some idiot comes to re invent the wheel and Milos Sarcev and his bullshit training is "the new thing that doesn't work"
most of the pros don't even know how to train.....what builds muscle....no fucking idea...they just do it
steroids + genetics and anything will give you results
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fat=fat....fat from salmon and fat from a burger are the same....both 9 calories per gram
a calorie ...IS a calorie
no, this is basic nutritional knowledge. they effect your body very differently.
you need to learn some basics before you want to discuss things with me.
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Maybe you'll entertain my thought exercise, Tbombz.
Let's say bodybuilder A followed a diet that got 1 gram/lb of protein in the ugliest way possible. Stuff like gelatin, beans, the odd piece of meat. Lots of incomplete protein sources. But, he ate exactly 2500 calories every day, for a year. Let's say that aside from his protein intake, he got the rest of his calories from some haphazard sources of carbs and fats. Stuff like butter, bread, milk...whatever.
Now, bodybuilder B gets 90% of his calories from the highest sources of protein known to man -- pure whey protein concentrate, with some isolate too. The highest BV of any protein source. If you want to argue BV, then let's say he just ate pure egg white. No carbs or fat, and a good quality source of protein in its own right. You get where I'm going. The only other calories (10% of his intake) came from green peppers, spinach and broccoli. Bodybuilder B also at 2500 calories per day like this.
Bodybuilder A and B are twins. They both have the same job, lifestyle, income, etc...They both train the exact same way, using the same poundages. Both natural.
Opine: how much more muscle does B gain over A, if any, over the course of 52 weeks? How much more fat does he lose, if any?
I submit, the difference will be statistically insignificant. Not hard considering n=2, but you get my point. I submit that at the end of the day, B may have gained a pound or two more than A. He may have lost a pound or two more fat than A. And at the end of it all, wouldn't A be a little happier than B? Taco Bell makes people happy Tbombz. Come on...admit it! KFC is good shit.
exactly my point
ENJOYING eating while getting to the same place the guy with tuna and eggs gets :)
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you need to learn some basics before you want to discuss things with me.
you need to learn some nutritional basics....maybe do a little studying.....maybe see some SCIENTIFIC studies
not just just gym science
and what milos sarcev tells you
I believe he said something like this in his nutrition dvd
"take 500 grams of protein everyday if you want to come next year and beat ronnie coleman"
how many times did Milos exactly beat Ronnie?
that's what I thought 8)
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Opine: how much more muscle does B gain over A, if any, over the course of 52 weeks? How much more fat does he lose, if any?
the exact numbers would be hard to say. they would be significant. however whey proteins dont have much thermic effect, so on a cutting diet meat proteins would be more beneficial than the higher BV value whey proteins. but on a gaining diet the high BV protein would be more beneficial of course. i do definitely think the difference would be significant and very apparent.
And at the end of it all, wouldn't A be a little happier than B? Taco Bell makes people happy Tbombz. Come on...admit it! KFC is good shit.
haha, well, hell yeah, 'junk food' make me happy too ! i eat lots of it. ;D HOWEVER, short term happynesspales in comparison to long term happyness. a sense of self confidence, and liking the way you look will far outweigh the mementary pleasure of enjoying 'junk'. right ?
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the exact numbers would be hard to say. they would be significant. however whey proteins dont have much thermic effect, so on a cutting diet meat proteins would be more beneficial than the higher BV value whey proteins. but on a gaining diet the high BV protein would be more beneficial of course. i do definitely think the difference would be significant and very apparent.
haha, well, hell yeah, 'junk food' make me happy too ! i eat lots of it. ;D HOWEVER, short term happynesspales in comparison to long term happyness. a sense of self confidence, and liking the way you look will far outweigh the mementary pleasure of enjoying 'junk'. right ?
again you're wrong ::)
the protein you get from food is better than isolate or concentrate or "celltech"
here is why
it's slow absorbing not fast absorbing like isolate
gives your body more time to use the protein rather than a quick burst
...again you think you know alot but in reality you don't know shit
hope this helps
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Bingo, and let me elaborate further.
Most of us here on the board generally agree that for a hard training natural, one should expect about 5 lbs of muscle per year, once the "newbie" phase is complete.
So, let's say in my previous example, bodybuilder B gains that 5 pounds because he did everything right. So by my example, that means bodybuilder A put on 3 pounds. Not too shabby either. Neither probably gained any fat, maybe they both lost a few pounds.
Now, you show me the difference two pounds of muscle makes on a body. Trick question: you can't. It's insignificant.
The only time bodybuilder B's practices become significant over those of A, happens over the course of a consistent decade of applied effort.
I don't know about everyone here, but I'm not keeping up "pro bodybuilder" pace for a year, let alone a decade.
As "true" as Tbombz example is, it's not real-world applicable to 95% of bodybuilders. For those who compete, sure -- I think he's got a marginal success rate over a more relaxed plan. But for those who don't compete, but want to look jacked, be strong, and lean -- why make it so damned hard?
5 pounds a year?
maybe for you
if it was like that I wouldn't even bother lifting a dumbbell.....ever
I went from 145 pounds to 240 pounds 16% bodyfat
this year will be my second year of training and I plan on putting on 30-40 pounds of muscle
I don't know where people come up with this crazy shit of 1 lb muscle a year ::)
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the protein you get from food is better than isolate or concentrate or "celltech"
well, first off, cell tech doesnt have any protein in it. ;D secondly, no, actually, whey protein is the best protei source for growth. studies prove this again and again and again.
it's slow absorbing not fast absorbing like isolate
true. one point for you ! :D
gives your body more time to use the protein rather than a quick burst
seems that way doesnt it? 'in reality', this doesnt hold true. whey protein always lead to more growth than any other source of protein thats 'SCIENCE'. :-* in fact the whole 'eat every three hours to keep protein constant' is flawed. go ask layne norton in his thread on md.com about optimal protein intake for hypertophy.
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I'm not the one with MuscleTech product filling my room so .... ;D
why don't you POST some of those studies
like the fucking fatloss pill "clinically proven"...I say BULLSHIT :D
I don't need Layne Norton to tell me how much protein to take or what to eat....I have a brain of my own
this is the same Layne Norton who finds out he is wrong about something new everyday right? :D
like the eating protein at regular basis vs big protein meals
maybe he should learn how to bench press right before he does it...not after
maybe then he won't tear a pec ;)
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I don't need Layne Norton to tell me how much protein to take or what to eat
:-\
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Dude, you're 6'7", aren't you? You're not average. Average is 5'9". The numbers I gave are for average bodybuilders who've been training a few years. You're not average, and you're new to the game. Give it time.
You gained that weight in your first year. Everyone does that. No one repeats in year two. Sophmore jinx of the lifting game. You'll see.
You should fight it though. That's what will make you gain. Just don't quit even if it doesn't happen. Learn from it.
;D I have learned the "rules" don't apply to me
You'll see bro
atleast 30 pounds of muscle this year ;D
wish me luck ;)
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:-\
Layne Norton = same guy who believes in "bulking"
ahhahahahhaha
same guy who thinks you need a positive energy balance to gain muscle
LOL
I don't know why you're so into him.....in reality he is an idiot who started working out cuz the girls didn't like him
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Layne Norton = .....in reality he is an idiot
:o :-\ :( :-X
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:o :-\ :( :-X
please tell me if something I said about him was wrong?
anything
everything is to a point
and did I mention he has chicken legs? :D
some of the shittiest legs
I bet mine are alot bigger than his and I just started training
maybe he should try to not act such a psycho when he works out making moan and screaming sounds ???
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did I mention we both have 18 inch arms?
and I have bigger legs ;D
and he is "layne norton" ::)
some special shit
a year from now I'd destroy him in any bodybuilding competition
maybe I'll see him in muscle mania or some show
Layne Norton is no challenge for me by next year
and you can take that to the bank ;)
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this is the idea i am arguing against. protein only DOES work. very efficiently.
it seems that today in bodybuilding you have two sides - high fat and high carb.
to me, both make no sense (for a fat loss diet).
both carbs and fats both inhibit the utilization of subcutaneous adipose stores.
proteins do not (well.. they do in a way.. kind of..partially..only in excess... lol.. nevermind.. just stick with "they do not" )
certain carbs, like green leafy fibrous veggies - have fat loss benefits.
certain fats, like omega 3 (preferably epa/dha ) and omega 6 (only gla) - have fat loss benefits.
in those two macro groups, any intake other than those listed above, does not make sense (if looking for fastest possible fat loss...)
for protein intake, you want to intake enought to cover gluconeogensis(avoid catabolism), but not enough to slow down lipolysis.
I don't know what "it works" means for you. I know from my own experience, that having a very low carb diet is a lot worse than a "normal" diet, for different reasons. And I always talk about body composition change, not weight loss. Weight loss has absolutely nothing to do with bodybuilding. I have no problems whatsoever to maintain a certain rate of weight loss regardless of macro composition. I also think that macro composition (besides P1-P5) can have an effect on some people. However, my experience is that it's insignificant.
Your knowledge seems to be theoretical for the most part. Mine is empirical. Let's put it this way: I would not hit myself over the head with a hammer twice just because an egghead tells me it shouldn't have hurt the first time around.
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As stated in the first post of this thread, this should not be a pissing match or throwing around of scientific articles. It should be based on comparative experience only. Any new input in this regard is appreciated.
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whey is not the best protein source for muscle gains - casine is. :P
candy as a former fat guy, you should remember whats its like to fight off those cravings for pizza, chocolate etc
i do not believe you have used your diet ever for any length of time.
theoretically - it would produce maximum fat loss - muscle loss too however unless on gear. its called a protein sparring modified fast in literature, and there have been many studies done on it.
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Bump for those interested as I get a ton of requests for help.
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Protein is so over thought it is ridiculous. I manage to diet, maintain and gain off of no more than 120 grams a day with NO problem. Period.
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I read this thread a while back and was thoroughly amused. I'd just like to throw in a tidbit I find amusing- Mike Mentzer also ascribes to the "calorie is a calorie" theory. As the rest of his training and nutrition are based on fantasy, poor interpretations of bad political philosophy, and generally deranged thought proceses springing from 2 weeks of sleeplessness and heavy methamphetamine use, I'll just go ahead and modify one of my favorite quotes from Stepbrothers...
THIS DIET IS HORSESHIT!
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obviously, each macronutrient has different physiological effects, so a calorie is not a caloire in reality, in terms of the chemical definition it is as a measurement, but its real world effects are quite different.
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obviously, each macronutrient has different physiological effects, so a calorie is not a caloire in reality, in terms of the chemical definition it is as a measurement, but its real world effects are quite different.
I don`t know how many times I have to post this but:
A Calorie is a Calorie but a Macronutrient is not a Macronutrient.
Hopefully that is the last time, but I am sure it won`t be.
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this is wrong dk - milk has been shown as better than whey after WO due to the combined anabolic/anti catabolic effects of whey/casein combo found in milk.
Not quite!!
What you posted is based on studies done in Texas. However, the post-workout protein used in that study was a 50% whey and 50% casein. Milk (cow) is 80% casein and 20% whey.
That study isn't all that revolutionary. The late Vince Gironda touted often that the best protein in the world was mother's milk (which is 60% whey and 40% casein). The protein supplement used in that Texas study is similar to Gironda's finding.
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;D I have learned the "rules" don't apply to me
You'll see bro
atleast 30 pounds of muscle this year ;D
wish me luck ;)
you're out of your mind Berlinsky, ...I mean...AXA.....no way you are going to add 30 lbs of muscle to YOUR frame in one year..you are way too lean for that
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I don`t know how many times I have to post this but:
A Calorie is a Calorie but a Macronutrient is not a Macronutrient.
Hopefully that is the last time, but I am sure it won`t be.
One cannot divest calories from macronutrients. Unless, of course, one works for VPX, that is. They've somehow managed to get EFAs into a product that contains no fat, so I suppose you can have your ephemeral macronutrients sans calories.
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lol :D what product?
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ZeroImpact protein powder. I like VPX for Redline and the Redline girls, but their protein powders and bars are total bunk. Their Zero Impact Bars have over 30g of non fibrous carbs that they claim have no impact on your insulin or blood sugar levels. Ridiculous.
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ZeroImpact protein powder. I like VPX for Redline and the Redline girls, but their protein powders and bars are total bunk. Their Zero Impact Bars have over 30g of non fibrous carbs that they claim have no impact on your insulin or blood sugar levels. Ridiculous.
lol, don't we all love the "net carb" bullshit....
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lol, don't we all love the "net carb" bullshit....
No, but I love you... :-*
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No, but I love you... :-*
i love you too, deicide! :-* :-* :-*
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lol, don't we all love the "net carb" bullshit....
It's not even an issue of net carbs, because there are no sugar alcohols included. Their math is mind blowing.
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i love you too, deicide! :-* :-* :-*
be careful donkey, you have no idea of the dangerous path those words could take you :-X
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be careful donkey, you have no idea of the dangerous path those words could take you :-X
i have a tattoo on my ass, i reads "Exit only".
;D ;D
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I'm eager to give these principles a shot. Anyone willing to help me or share their experience? Thanks
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I'm eager to give these principles a shot. Anyone willing to help me or share their experience? Thanks
obviously a new gimmick account eh loser? really smooth...
definition of the ultimate internet loser: dredge up your own moronic thread from 2009 in a desperate plea for human contact....
::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
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you also sit at 30% bodyfat, you ox
WHY ARE YOU ANSWERING IN A THREAD FOUR YEARS LATER???????
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because i wasnt on get big back then and the honourable donkeyman has linked me to fatpanda threads.
and because i know the posters are still reading
and because there is things to set straight
LOL, don't worry man, even if these people are reading, they KNOW that they are idiots.
They have proven so many times.
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good old adonis & his bitch tits
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;)
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;)
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bump worthy
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http://www.marksdailyapple.com/7-common-calorie-myths-we-should-all-stop-believing/
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/9-more-calorie-myths-we-should-all-stop-believing/
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http://www.marksdailyapple.com/7-common-calorie-myths-we-should-all-stop-believing/
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/9-more-calorie-myths-we-should-all-stop-believing/
::)
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What is the cheat meal/day rule?
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I read this thread a while back and was thoroughly amused. I'd just like to throw in a tidbit I find amusing- Mike Mentzer also ascribes to the "calorie is a calorie" theory. As the rest of his training and nutrition are based on fantasy, poor interpretations of bad political philosophy, and generally deranged thought proceses springing from 2 weeks of sleeplessness and heavy methamphetamine use, I'll just go ahead and modify one of my favorite quotes from Stepbrothers...
THIS DIET IS HORSESHIT!
like MIke was one of best ever, even if on roids, since all are, so who are u to say shiiiit?
mike politics were awesome aand correct, viva ayn rand and objectivism
trump all theway
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I don`t. Hope this helps. You can choose to remain ignorant if you like. Does not bother me one bit. Its the same thing religious people do. Blind to the facts and science.
Adonis how do you count the calories? Do you have like packages of food laid out? or just kinda guess?
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As stated in the first post of this thread, this should not be a pissing match or throwing around of scientific articles. It should be based on comparative experience only. Any new input in this regard is appreciated.
Wave what do you think about durianrider and the low fat all carb fruit diet? He claims more calories can be consumed and as long as fat n sodum held to very small amount, you lose weight steadily. durianrider on youtube
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Wavelength was a good man