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Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: musclecenter on October 17, 2009, 05:29:35 AM
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http://www.ifbbpro.com/news/advisory-notice-101409/ (http://www.ifbbpro.com/news/advisory-notice-101409/)
The posing routine will no longer be scored.
This will value the prejudging and Finals Posedown at 50% each.
Discuss
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Finals Posedown is top 6 or top 15 ?
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Maybe this will spark a return of props, and we can see ronnie as moses again LOL.
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a lot of posing routines where just rediculus, robot dancing, strip posing etc.
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If it's true that the posing routine wouldn't be scored it would be a big mistake. A good presentation is like the icing on the cake. It's a sad fact that so many great physiques pose so boring, insecure, (too) fast, sloppy and mostly a combination of this :-\
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If it's not to be scored, then why include it!?
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;)
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;)
Great player. Terrible human being.
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In the end, it does not matter. The posing round was scored on who had the best physique, not who was the best poser. That always brought a lot of confusion, because some people lost sight of the fact that it's a bodybuilding show. No matter if they're doing quarter turns, mandatory poses, or free posing, it will always be judged on the physique.
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I have always said that if an IFBB Pro posed shocking and had a better physique he wins over a better poser with a less physique many argued that if a guy can pose better he could win.What a load of crap.Next they will delete the posing altogether.
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In the end, it does not matter. The posing round was scored on who had the best physique, not who was the best poser. That always brought a lot of confusion, because some people lost sight of the fact that it's a bodybuilding show. No matter if they're doing quarter turns, mandatory poses, or free posing, it will always be judged on the physique.
Well said...
Thwe bottom line is that the "posing round" has never been scored as such, and gave the false impression that this was a round in which someone with the best posing could actually move up...
By eliminating the actual scoring of this round, we open it up to awarding PRIZE MONEY to someone that actually HAS the best routine/ most entertaining, etc...without compromising the judging.
The other objective was having the posedown count..if were going to have 2 day shows, then BOTH should count as such, and athletes should have a chance to catch up/ show that they have the better physique. The posing at a BB show is a showcase of the physique and we need to start expanding the thinking into more entertainment and putting out "shows" rather than competitions (which are for the most part, a giant snooze fest)...prejudging= competition...finals=entertainment
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As long as I see men in thongs I will be happy.
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As long as I see men in thongs I will be happy.
x2
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Chick has been presenting this scenario for a while.
I think the posing routine should be optional with a good prize amount....
50K winner take all.
Take it right off the top of the Mr O. prize.
No matter who wins the Olympia is going to clear 50K easy in endorsements.
The fans like the posing round. Just listen to them at a show.
Lets have it full of people who want and can do it, for a good prize.
What do you think about that Bob?
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Finals Posedown will be a fight between competitors I think ;D
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Chick has been presenting this scenario for a while.
I think the posing routine should be optional with a good prize amount....
50K winner take all.
Take it right off the top of the Mr O. prize.
No matter who wins the Olympia is going to clear 50K easy in endorsements.
The fans like the posing round. Just listen to them at a show.
Lets have it full of people who want and can do it, for a good prize.
What do you think about that Bob?
You're right, I've had this on the table for the last 2 years.
I'm all for a big money prize, it makes more sense, and certainly will inspire more athletes to put together better routines...money motivates and it will be open to anyone in the show who can present the best, not just the top 6.
What doesnt motivate is (was) the current system where the guys KNOW they're not really being judged...
Time to get with the times
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i think this is good so the judges can concentrate on judging the bodies and not whether they prefer a pop and lock routine to a heavy metal routine.
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good riddance
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Bob, were the judges' scores published from the Olympia? Would be interesting to see if any changed their scores on Day 2.
I notice you use the word 'we' when talking about what the Pro League is going to do. Seems to me you are one of the back room boys and not the fair dinkum pro athletes rep you were appointed to be.
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If it's true that the posing routine wouldn't be scored it would be a big mistake. A good presentation is like the icing on the cake. It's a sad fact that so many great physiques pose so boring, insecure, (too) fast, sloppy and mostly a combination of this :-\
Outed
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Posing Round has always been a JOKE.
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As long as I see men in thongs I will be happy.
X3.
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"posing rounds" are best saved for muscleweb, muscletv etc... lets face it... not all of us move like Milos Sarcev ;)
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I was talking to Ronnie on the phone the other day, he mentioned he would like something called "Challenge Round" to be re-introduced.
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Bob, were the judges' scores published from the Olympia? Would be interesting to see if any changed their scores on Day 2.
I notice you use the word 'we' when talking about what the Pro League is going to do. Seems to me you are one of the back room boys and not the fair dinkum pro athletes rep you were appointed to be.
Changed from what to what? The athletes get judged on Sat...
I use the word WE as I am a part of the pro league and represent the athletes interests...who do you think proposes the changes? In order to represent the "fair dinkum", one needs to have a voice at the table...not quite sure what "back room" YOU'RE used to being in...but the Pro League meeting minutes are posted, as in the case of this thread.
ImBasile
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Well said...
Thwe bottom line is that the "posing round" has never been scored as such, and gave the false impression that this was a round in which someone with the best posing could actually move up...
By eliminating the actual scoring of this round, we open it up to awarding PRIZE MONEY to someone that actually HAS the best routine/ most entertaining, etc...without compromising the judging.
The other objective was having the posedown count..if were going to have 2 day shows, then BOTH should count as such, and athletes should have a chance to catch up/ show that they have the better physique. The posing at a BB show is a showcase of the physique and we need to start expanding the thinking into more entertainment and putting out "shows" rather than competitions (which are for the most part, a giant snooze fest)...prejudging= competition...finals=entertainment
Trying to comprehend. Still a bit surprised about certain aspects, Bob.
Weren't there situations, when the posing round decided the outcome of a competition? I thought that the posing round could in fact move a competitor up by hiding weak/emphasizing strong bodyparts, thereby leaving a distinctive impression in the judges minds.
It often happens in competition that competitors start to "shine" when they start posing.
But maybe it depends on whether one looks at bb more as an art form (to be displayed) or sport...?
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Well said...
Thwe bottom line is that the "posing round" has never been scored as such, and gave the false impression that this was a round in which someone with the best posing could actually move up...
By eliminating the actual scoring of this round, we open it up to awarding PRIZE MONEY to someone that actually HAS the best routine/ most entertaining, etc...without compromising the judging.
The other objective was having the posedown count..if were going to have 2 day shows, then BOTH should count as such, and athletes should have a chance to catch up/ show that they have the better physique. The posing at a BB show is a showcase of the physique and we need to start expanding the thinking into more entertainment and putting out "shows" rather than competitions (which are for the most part, a giant snooze fest)...prejudging= competition...finals=entertainment
*Sigh* As usual you miss the overall scope of things... One SHOULD be able to move up with great posing/presentation. It shouldn't count for everything, (I'm not saying that Ken Jones should hit the top 5 anytime soon), but yes one should be able to make up some ground with excellent presentation.
Also if all things are relatively equal between competitors, then the one with the better posing skills should get the edge.
Posing needs to be looked at much more stringently in the IFBB. How well one does their relaxed poses, quarter turns, transitions between poses, etc. The problem with paying a lump sum to the "best" poser, (which I admit is better then nothing), is that it will simply reward the same recycled popping-and-locking crap routines that we have seen from Melvin, Darrem, Kai, etc, at least 332432 times before.
Posing is one of the most subtle and demanding elements in Bodybuilding, and it should be a more important part of the criteria in competitions.
M!
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*Sigh* As usual you miss the overall scope of things... One SHOULD be able to move up with great posing/presentation. It shouldn't count for everything, (I'm not saying that Ken Jones should hit the top 5 anytime soon), but yes one should be able to make up some ground with excellent presentation.
Also if all things are relatively equal between competitors, then the one with the better posing skills should get the edge.
Posing needs to be looked at much more stringently in the IFBB. How well one does their relaxed poses, quarter turns, transitions between poses, etc. The problem with paying a lump sum to the "best" poser, (which I admit is better then nothing), is that it will simply reward the same recycled popping-and-locking crap routines that we have seen from Melvin, Darrem, Kai, etc, at least 332432 times before.
Posing is one of the most subtle and demanding elements in Bodybuilding, and it should be a more important part of the criteria in competitions.
M!
X2 How could you leave posing out of the scoring?
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Trying to comprehend. Still a bit surprised about certain aspects, Bob.
Weren't there situations, when the posing round decided the outcome of a competition? I thought that the posing round could in fact move a competitor up by hiding weak/emphasizing strong bodyparts, thereby leaving a distinctive impression in the judges minds.
It often happens in competition that competitors start to "shine" when they start posing.
But maybe it depends on whether one looks at bb more as an art form (to be displayed) or sport...?
The posing round has NEVER decided any pro show...and whenever it was close (i.e.- Shawn Ray/ Dorian) Shawn, the obviously better poser/ presenter by a mile....STILL lost.
At the end of the day, it's still a PHYSIQUE competition, and a competitor shouldnt win because he can pop and lock, do the splits, sumersault.....and he shouldn't lose as a result of it.
Entertainment is what sells tickets, and lack of it doesn't (i.e.- the last 44 years)
Basically, nothing will change...except spreading the money out to a bigger pool of hopefuls. They dont judge the posing round NOW
Every advantage, no disadvantage.
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Then whats the point of even working on your posing? If it doesn't matter then everyone shouldn't bother with it. ::)
The reason that most posing routines have been boring Chick is that most Bodybuilders are Mediocre posers! No one has ever complained about the entertainment value of watching Lee Labrada, Bob Paris, Rusty Jeffers, etc, pose.
If there was more value attached to presentation, it would force bodybuilders to work harder at it, hire people to help them prep/choreograph their routines, etc. Of course the IFBB wouldn't want to actually try and uphold their standards... ::)
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just a thought...
Once there is clear distinction between the two couldn't the "competitive" side of the bodybuilding event and the "entertainment" side attract entirely different sponsorship arrangements...
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Then whats the point of even working on your posing? If it doesn't matter then everyone shouldn't bother with it. ::)
The reason that most posing routines have been boring Chick is that most Bodybuilders are Mediocre posers! No one has ever complained about the entertainment value of watching Lee Labrada, Bob Paris, Rusty Jeffers, etc, pose.
If there was more value attached to presentation, it would force bodybuilders to work harder at it, hire people to help them prep/choreograph their routines, etc. Of course the IFBB wouldn't want to actually try and uphold their standards... ::)
You just confirmed Bob's point
::)
but you must also remember that it a PHYSIQUE contest... the display thereof in respect to "wow factor" is irrelevant
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what would leave you more entertained at the night show...?
seeing 4-5 great posing routines (those gifted in that department) or 10-12 mediocre ones and the good ones?
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The posing round has NEVER decided any pro show...and whenever it was close (i.e.- Shawn Ray/ Dorian) Shawn, the obviously better poser/ presenter by a mile....STILL lost.
At the end of the day, it's still a PHYSIQUE competition, and a competitor shouldnt win because he can pop and lock, do the splits, sumersault.....and he shouldn't lose as a result of it.
Entertainment is what sells tickets, and lack of it doesn't (i.e.- the last 44 years)
Basically, nothing will change...except spreading the money out to a bigger pool of hopefuls. They dont judge the posing round NOW
Every advantage, no disadvantage.
So be it.
Thinking about it, are the best posers really the most entertaining athletes?
The most important thing for all these pros to market themselves seems to be personality. On and off the stage.
Take Kamali: he was entertaining not primarily because he was a great poser, but because he polarized the audience with his ... personality.
You can have size and/or posing skills, but they are worth nothing with a middle-of-a-donut personality. How else could one explain the success of a meat and potatoes athlete like Branch Warren. He is not overly entertaining on stage, but he genuinely represents something that allows him to grow his fan base. Without somersaults.
Keep our sport moving.
cheers.
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You just confirmed Bob's point
::)
but you must also remember that it a PHYSIQUE contest... the display thereof in respect to "wow factor" is irrelevant
How do you figure...most bodybuilders are mediocre posers, because there is no incentive for them to be any better at it. If their presentation had an effect on their placing, then you can bet that everyone would be working on bettering their performances. This of course would lead to more entertaining routines, and a more enjoyable exp, at a show.
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Then whats the point of even working on your posing? If it doesn't matter then everyone shouldn't bother with it. ::)
The reason that most posing routines have been boring Chick is that most Bodybuilders are Mediocre posers! No one has ever complained about the entertainment value of watching Lee Labrada, Bob Paris, Rusty Jeffers, etc, pose.
If there was more value attached to presentation, it would force bodybuilders to work harder at it, hire people to help them prep/choreograph their routines, etc. Of course the IFBB wouldn't want to actually try and uphold their standards... ::)
If there is a $10,000 award to go with it, then there is EVERY reason to work on your routine...as it stands NOW...there is no reason to work on it other than pride, thus the change.
Most guys are mediocre posers....you know why? No incentive. The BBers put the stock into what matters traditionally....the physique.
You're making my point...more value=more money on the line. Making a posing routine worth MORE could reward someone with an outstanding routine, but sub-par physique..not exactly what the BB fans would be looking for. I've seen Ken Jones with some very entertaining routines, very well choreographed and thought out...should he have won the posing round, catapulting him into the top 5?
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If there is a $10,000 award to go with it, then there is EVERY reason to work on your routine...as it stands NOW...there is no reason to work on it other than pride, thus the change.
Most guys are mediocre posers....you know why? No incentive. The BBers put the stock into what matters traditionally....the physique.
You're making my point...more value=more money on the line. Making a posing routine worth MORE could reward someone with an outstanding routine, but sub-par physique..not exactly what the BB fans would be looking for. I've seen Ken Jones with some very entertaining routines, very well choreographed and thought out...should he have won the posing round, catapulting him into the top 5?
The problem with just forking over 10grand to the best poser is that they will simply reward the same people again and again.
Example: I attended the 08 Ironman, and they had a Best Poser award....and it went to King Kamli....all he did that night was a half-ass stripper routine that ended with him taking of his posing trunks, only to find another pair of trunks underneath.... Yawn... now for those of us actually paying attention that night... we all would have told you that Rusty Jeffers was the best poser hands down.
I fear that it will only reward the same popping and locking routines that we have seen 234323 times before. The first time we saw Melvin gyrate to some slow R&B it was entertaining...it quickly grew old..yet he still does the same basic routine and he keeps getting praised for it. You can also add Darrem to this list...
That said...no I don't think Ken Jones should by any means crack a top 5...but if he was the best poser that night...then I have no problem with him climbing up a couple of spots... of course when you go from 16th to 14th...what are we really worried about?
I'm not saying that posing should carry as much weight as the Muscularity, or Symmetry rounds, but it should count for something.
M!
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Great player. Terrible human being.
Doc, thats very profund.
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Then IS IT A OBLIGATION FOR THEM TO DO THE POSING ROUTINE?
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The problem with just forking over 10grand to the best poser is that they will simply reward the same people again and again.
Example: I attended the 08 Ironman, and they had a Best Poser award....and it went to King Kamli....all he did that night was a half-ass stripper routine that ended with him taking of his posing trunks, only to find another pair of trunks underneath.... Yawn... now for those of us actually paying attention that night... we all would have told you that Rusty Jeffers was the best poser hands down.
I fear that it will only reward the same popping and locking routines that we have seen 234323 times before. The first time we saw Melvin gyrate to some slow R&B it was entertaining...it quickly grew old..yet he still does the same basic routine and he keeps getting praised for it. You can also add Darrem to this list...
That said...no I don't think Ken Jones should by any means crack a top 5...but if he was the best poser that night...then I have no problem with him climbing up a couple of spots... of course when you go from 16th to 14th...what are we really worried about?
I'm not saying that posing should carry as much weight as the Muscularity, or Symmetry rounds, but it should count for something.
M!
Agree. I think a good presentation, and that doesn't have to be a fancy stripper, robot, breakdancer, clown or whatever act, should be a integral part of presenting a physique. As a result of this change only 'show stoppa's' like Kai, Melvin or Darrem make a serious chance, which will result in more predictable placings (read: boring shows). Bodybuilding is about about the complete package & presentation, not the best dancer.
Whats the next step? A price for the best conditioning, most mass (I'm not talking about the most muscular pose award), darkest tan, most beautiful face?
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The ability to pose will still be rewarded because a good poser can better present their physique in the mandatories. Judging free posing routines is pointless because the competitors have already been thoroughly compared with 8 mandatory poses and quarter turns. No one is winning on a 3/4 twisting back shot they pull off Saturday night that moves them up 5 spots. I do agree that if there is a best poser award given out, let all types of posing be rewarded, not just Melvin's same routine.
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In amateur IFBB, posing routine YES is a part of the score, 33% exactly and maybe (posing routing) is 50-50 between physique and entertaiment perfomance. Is this sytem better o worst??? I donīt know but from a part to now routines are considerably better.
Chick please, can you tell me waht do you think about the careless of IFBB PRO in Europe. Maybe the rules are made to do events on USA/Canada and itīs considerably more expensive here, in Europe. Would be this the fact to help to others world/european asociations (Wabba, Nabba, NAC etc...) exist here.
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The problem with just forking over 10grand to the best poser is that they will simply reward the same people again and again.
Example: I attended the 08 Ironman, and they had a Best Poser award....and it went to King Kamli....all he did that night was a half-ass stripper routine that ended with him taking of his posing trunks, only to find another pair of trunks underneath.... Yawn... now for those of us actually paying attention that night... we all would have told you that Rusty Jeffers was the best poser hands down.
And therin lies the problem with scoring the "posing routine"...whos to say what is better and how does a judge compare a KK rountine to RJ? It's like trying to compare Frank Sinatra to 50 Cent...thus the proposal to eliminate scoring of it....
I fear that it will only reward the same popping and locking routines that we have seen 234323 times before. The first time we saw Melvin gyrate to some slow R&B it was entertaining...it quickly grew old..yet he still does the same basic routine and he keeps getting praised for it. You can also add Darrem to this list...
If the same people put forth the effort, then so be it...I believe putting money on the line will inspire them to be creative and make an efort to put 10K in their pocket, especially for those climbing the ladder or not the best on stage...
That said...no I don't think Ken Jones should by any means crack a top 5...but if he was the best poser that night...then I have no problem with him climbing up a couple of spots... of course when you go from 16th to 14th...what are we really worried about?
And if you understood the judging system that was in place...he wouldn't just "climb a couple of spots", he could actually place in the top 5 ahead of physiques obviously better than his...
I'm not saying that posing should carry as much weight as the Muscularity, or Symmetry rounds, but it should count for something.
And it does...representing and displaying your physique. Should Dorian have ever won a posing round? How about Ronnie?
M!
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Then why not just drop the night show and be done with it? The answer is $ all for the public correct?
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Then why not just drop the night show and be done with it? The answer is $ all for the public correct?
Expo's and supp companys, time constraints
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What has a supp company got to do with Official IFBB Judging???
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What has a supp company got to do with Official IFBB Judging???
Nothing
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Nothing
Then Drop the night show.
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I dont think you get it.
Supp companies sponsor BB events, and in turn, get to display their company at the expo's, which people attend...if there isnt enough bang for the buck, then the supp companies wont continue to sponsor shows...
That said, sometimes (most of the time) there are multiple competitions at a show..there simply isnt enough time to shove everything into one day
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Then do it over two days.
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"we" would imply that you have had a vote on your proposals versus Bob Chick arbitrarily deciding whats best for the people you claim to represent.
but that didn't happen did it?
Changed from what to what? The athletes get judged on Sat...
I use the word WE as I am a part of the pro league and represent the athletes interests...who do you think proposes the changes? In order to represent the "fair dinkum", one needs to have a voice at the table...not quite sure what "back room" YOU'RE used to being in...but the Pro League meeting minutes are posted, as in the case of this thread.
ImBasile
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LOL @ Ronnie whooping melvin Anthony in the posing round...
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Then whats the point of even working on your posing? If it doesn't matter then everyone shouldn't bother with it. ::)
The reason that most posing routines have been boring Chick is that most Bodybuilders are Mediocre posers! No one has ever complained about the entertainment value of watching Lee Labrada, Bob Paris, Rusty Jeffers, etc, pose.
If there was more value attached to presentation, it would force bodybuilders to work harder at it, hire people to help them prep/choreograph their routines, etc. Of course the IFBB wouldn't want to actually try and uphold their standards... ::)
I agree with this wholeheartedly.
By removing the posing round - and by extension posing itself - you are simply lowering the standards of bodybuilding as a sport (at least when viewed as an artistic sport). You are destroying the potential of this sport by taking away the opportunity for athletes to find other ways to excel in it.
By actually making a competition out of it, you can actually increase the atmosphere, excitement and tension for spectators - not to mention the athletes.
This is a terrible decision. It reflects a lack of awareness of what constitutes the basis for entertainment in modern sports and reveals an incredible lack of vision on behalf of the management of the IFBB.
My God, now that I think about it, has the IFBB ever made use of a sports marketing consultancy firm in order to highlght ways of improving the sport?
What a waste of potential.
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"we" would imply that you have had a vote on your proposals versus Bob Chick arbitrarily deciding whats best for the people you claim to represent.
but that didn't happen did it?
Vote on it? It WAS my proposal...I dont "claim" to represent them...I do.
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I agree with this wholeheartedly.
By removing the posing round - and by extension posing itself - you are simply lowering the standards of bodybuilding as a sport (at least when viewed as an artistic sport). You are destroying the potential of this sport by taking away the opportunity for athletes to find other ways to excel in it.
By actually making a competition out of it, you can actually increase the atmosphere, excitement and tension for spectators - not to mention the athletes.
This is a terrible decision. It reflects a lack of awareness of what constitutes the basis for entertainment in modern sports and reveals an incredible lack of vision on behalf of the management of the IFBB.
My God, now that I think about it, has the IFBB ever made use of a sports marketing consultancy firm in order to highlght ways of improving the sport?
What a waste of potential.
No one is removing the posing round.
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No one is removing the posing round.
But you are for all intents and purposes removing it from consideration.
Again, I wonder just how much the IFBB and its management seriously consider how their decisions impact on the viablity of bodybuilding as a sport.
Bodybuilding may never go mainstream but a touch of dignity would go a long way towards it at least being accepted as a respected oddity in the sports and entertainment world.
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But you are for all intents and purposes removing it from consideration.
Again, I wonder just how much the IFBB and its management seriously consider how their decisions impact on the viablity of bodybuilding as a sport.
Bodybuilding may never go mainstream but a touch of dignity would go a long way towards it at least being accepted as a respected oddity in the sports and entertainment world.
There is no "for all intent and purpose"...
It has never been judged, so what is changing in your mind?
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There is no "for all intent and purpose"...
It has never been judged, so what is changing in your mind?
That is the whole point.
By removing any chance for consideration, you are also removing any chance for any meaningful progress in the sport beyond how big the athletes can get.
By making the ability to pose an integral part of the sport, you automatically raise the level of dignity that the sport can present.
If you are concerned about poor physiques winning with great posing, then that would simply be a matter of how much you weigh the scores in favour of each criteria.
In anycase, by the time you get to to where it matters, the ability to pose and present your physique ought to make a real difference between those who are very close in terms of size, conditioning and proportion. Set up correctly, this importance in the posing round could create real tension and excitement for spectators.
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That is the whole point.
By removing any chance for consideration, you are also removing any chance for any meaningful progress in the sport beyond how big the athletes can get.
By making the ability to pose an integral part of the sport, you automatically raise the level of dignity that the sport can present.
If you are concerned about poor physiques winning with great posing, then that would simply be a matter of how much you weigh the scores in favour of each criteria.
In anycase, by the time you get to to where it matters, the ability to pose and present your physique ought to make a real difference between those who are very close in terms of size, conditioning and proportion. Set up correctly, this importance in the posing round could create real tension and excitement for spectators.
You still need the ability to pose, in the prejudging...mandatories, individual posing round, and finals...if making 10K DOESNT MOTIVATE THE GUYS, THEN NOTHING WILL.
Even when the guys believed they WERE gettng judged on the routine, we had a 95% lame/ boring routines...
Now, they have a chance at some real money...and we open up the floodgates for some real entertainment, while not handcuffed by this imaginary "scoring" of the posing round.
You're not thinking this through
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there shouldnt be any night shows in BB....PERIOD.
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You still need the ability to pose, in the prejudging...mandatories, individual posing round, and finals...if making 10K DOESNT MOTIVATE THE GUYS, THEN NOTHING WILL.
Even when the guys believed they WERE gettng judged on the routine, we had a 95% lame/ boring routines...
Now, they have a chance at some real money...and we open up the floodgates for some real entertainment, while not handcuffed by this imaginary "scoring" of the posing round.
You're not thinking this through
Again, that is the point. They 'believed' they were getting judged but in fact they were not. Is it any wonder then that the posing got worse and worse?
Real entertainment ought to come form the sport itself through the process of its competition. The posing round and being able to pose should be an integral part of this, not something tacked on as part of the 'side entertainment.'
If there is somehow 'real money' available now for the best poser, why not increase the total prize money pool for the lower placed guys (ie, 6-10) so that their ability to pose can have a real impact on their placings and so make for more exciting competition?
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shoudl not even include it if it is not scored. Cos the bbers will not put in effort to put a good routine
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You're right, I've had this on the table for the last 2 years.
Since november 2005 actually...last 4 years
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most BB today are only talented about substance use. most haven't even an ability to walk across a balance beam.
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Again, that is the point. They 'believed' they were getting judged but in fact they were not. Is it any wonder then that the posing got worse and worse?
Real entertainment ought to come form the sport itself through the process of its competition. The posing round and being able to pose should be an integral part of this, not something tacked on as part of the 'side entertainment.'
If there is somehow 'real money' available now for the best poser, why not increase the total prize money pool for the lower placed guys (ie, 6-10) so that their ability to pose can have a real impact on their placings and so make for more exciting competition?
Competition is only so exciting...you can only see so many front DB and lat spreads before it becomes wallpaper...by the same token, you can only sit through so many lame posing routines...
This is still a BODYBUILDING competition at the end of the day, and someone like a ken Jones should not be placed ahead of guys that are obviously better because he had a better routine.....
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Competition is only so exciting...you can only see so many front DB and lat spreads before it becomes wallpaper...by the same token, you can only sit through so many lame posing routines...
This is still a BODYBUILDING competition at the end of the day, and someone like a ken Jones should not be placed ahead of guys that are obviously better because he had a better routine.....
True, which is why you organise the process of competition so as to make it interesting. Even two fat cows running across a field becomes interesting when the viewer kows something is at stake. It becomes even more interesting when the viewer knows why something is at stake.
A simple measure would be to actually judge the posing round as posing ability, with a few points kept in reserve for conditioning perhaps. The guys who have made it through the qualifying rounds to be afforded a chance to pose then get to see how far their posing can take them over similarly conditioned guys.
Basically you set everything up so that the posing becomes relevant in determing the who places where amongst those guys who are in the mix.
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As an extra, there ought to be a limit on the number of competitors for the very reason of boredom through repetition. That way, everything that one does on that stage becomes important in determing placings.
Look at sports like gymnastics and figure skating. How many times can you view the same triple-back-flip-thingy before it gets old hat? That doesn't stop those sports being exceedignly popular in their countries. It doesn't stop them from being entertaining nor does it stop them from being sports.
It seems to me that bodybuiding has fallen into the trap of believing its own razzle and dazzle.
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if there's a night showit should be entertainment driven not all those talentless posers
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Chick destroying lots of weak posters on here.
Nothing more to say.
(http://www.buddytv.com/articles/Image/sons-of-anarchy/sons-of-anarchy-ep2.jpg)
(http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/8904/soaa12347gh2.jpg)
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hey chick have you ever thought about having the guys pose in ascending order at night according to their prejudging scores?
ie. the last place guy from the prejudging poses first and the first place guy poses last? wouldn't that build some drama and have the crowd more excited and interested as to if the 2nd, 3rd guys can take over the first place guy in the posedown and win the contest?
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hey chick have you ever thought about having the guys pose in ascending order at night according to their prejudging scores?
ie. the last place guy from the prejudging poses first and the first place guy poses last? wouldn't that build some drama and have the crowd more excited and interested as to if the 2nd, 3rd guys can take over the first place guy in the posedown and win the contest?
No, it would just let everyone know what the placings are and make it LESS attractive to attend...
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Chic, ANSWER my question please.
Then STILL IS IT A OBLIGATION FOR THEM TO DO THE POSING ROUTINE?
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Chic, ANSWER my question please.
Then STILL IS IT A OBLIGATION FOR THEM TO DO THE POSING ROUTINE?
Yes if the round dont count why have it? My guess so people will show up and pay money.
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what is sad is that the new generation of bb's cannot sustain the golden age rules. They have dropped the ball for sure.
Is this a result of sociologial change? No, more likely a result of the dumbing down of America, the lack of any education in the arts is showing itself in this ignorant decision to devalue the posing round. By marginilzing it, it will probably disappear all together.
Using profit as the only measure of somethings value is what is wrong with America today and with the IFBB. If there is no interest in art for the sake of art then so be it. But don't complain when your culture becomes more and more vacuous by the coporations that control it and you are feeling empty and spiritually lost.
The posing round was a way of taking the physical into the etheral. Making just simple biology and flesh into art. That was exciting and transformative. Just going for big muscles through pharmacueticals and displaying them on stage to be measured is very animalistic and dull. Why not just leave slabs of marble on museum floors, no bother to see what they can become? Or leave canvasas empty? Why bother taking the everyday physical world into the realm of the spiritual? If it doesnt make money then get rid of it right?
The IFBB is just dumbing us down some more with this latest decision. Devaluing a tradition that inspired many of us to believe that through hard work, disipline and stick to it-ness we could transform something mortal into something magnificent. Too bad the IFBB couldnt stick to it.
What makes me wonder about people that make decisions like this, is dont they have any gratituted to the world they grew up in. They seem to want to just rape and pillage it taking all material posession for themselves leaving nothing for the next generation, not even art.
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so you admit to arbitrarily making proposals on others behalf, without consent.
"It was my proposal".
Making the IFBB more like the NPC. Has Manion already tapped you as his successor?
Vote on it? It WAS my proposal...I dont "claim" to represent them...I do.
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fixed
Chick gaining some new ass kissers on here.
Nothing more to say.
(http://www.buddytv.com/articles/Image/sons-of-anarchy/sons-of-anarchy-ep2.jpg)
(http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/8904/soaa12347gh2.jpg)
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Yes if the round dont count why have it? My guess so people will show up and pay money.
He said "Entertainment".
Then its gonna be like "guest appearance" but every competitors DONT GET PAID.
Thats ridiclous.
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Chic, ANSWER my question please.
Then STILL IS IT A OBLIGATION FOR THEM TO DO THE POSING ROUTINE?
Of course...its a show. Why wouldnt they want to do it?
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Of course...its a show. Why wouldnt they want to do it?
Ok, then all of competitors who contribute this "Exhibition" round should be PAID like a guest appearance no?
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Ok, then all of competitors who contribute this "Exhibition" round should be PAID like a guest appearance no?
no
It's part of the show, it's a chance to make money, it's an opportunity to showcase your physique to the judges, fans, companies, etc...
I guess if anyone believes that going out there half assed will help them in some strange way...so bit it....but no one does that in the amateurs, and no one does that in the pro's even though neither one scores the posing round
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what is sad is that the new generation of bb's cannot sustain the golden age rules. They have dropped the ball for sure.
Is this a result of sociologial change? No, more likely a result of the dumbing down of America, the lack of any education in the arts is showing itself in this ignorant decision to devalue the posing round. By marginilzing it, it will probably disappear all together.
Using profit as the only measure of somethings value is what is wrong with America today and with the IFBB. If there is no interest in art for the sake of art then so be it. But don't complain when your culture becomes more and more vacuous by the coporations that control it and you are feeling empty and spiritually lost.
The posing round was a way of taking the physical into the etheral. Making just simple biology and flesh into art. That was exciting and transformative. Just going for big muscles through pharmacueticals and displaying them on stage to be measured is very animalistic and dull. Why not just leave slabs of marble on museum floors, no bother to see what they can become? Or leave canvasas empty? Why bother taking the everyday physical world into the realm of the spiritual? If it doesnt make money then get rid of it right?
The IFBB is just dumbing us down some more with this latest decision. Devaluing a tradition that inspired many of us to believe that through hard work, disipline and stick to it-ness we could transform something mortal into something magnificent. Too bad the IFBB couldnt stick to it.
What makes me wonder about people that make decisions like this, is dont they have any gratituted to the world they grew up in. They seem to want to just rape and pillage it taking all material posession for themselves leaving nothing for the next generation, not even art.
NYC is right on the money here Chick. You need to stop and seriously think about this for a min...because all you are doing is lowering the bar instead of raising it. In other words, you are placating and championing mediorcity, by doing away with one of the few things that any smart competitor can use to his advantage: His presentation.
Let me ask everyone a question... Isnt one of the things that fascinated us with this "Sport," was watching Pumping Iron, and seeing how much thought and attention to presentation, people like Arnold, Franco, Corney, etc put into it? It was a craft, and it was unthinkable to not to dedicate a lot of time and effort to it. It shouldn't be surprising that the same people also were at the top of their craft...because they took all aspects of it seriously.
To negate the emphasis on posing, rather then trying to come up with ways to make it more important, (while still remaining practical), is to piss on an endeavor that has allready been tarnished enough. Its time to step up Chick, and do something to better this "Sport," because this new change sure as hell isn't the answer. All it means is a few more paydays for Melvin.
M!
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no
It's part of the show, it's a chance to make money, it's an opportunity to showcase your physique to the judges, fans, companies, etc...
I guess if anyone believes that going out there half assed will help them in some strange way...so bit it....but no one does that in the amateurs, and no one does that in the pro's even though neither one scores the posing round
Exactly how?
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OK, so the decision's been made and the athletes are okay with the posing round not being scored because they proposed it. It's a done deal.
This is a change and people in general hate change. Why not deal with the change and come up with some ideas to help make the round better?
If this change is being made to improve the incentive for the athletes to come up with better routines for cash awards, shouldn't some standards or criteria be made or established so competitors know what is expected? For example, in Fitness competitions, the routine round has certain standards and movements for strength, balance and athleticism that need to be incorporated into their routines to score well. Could that be established in the men's posing round? For example, 5 of the 7 mandatory poses have to be incorporated or maybe do the opposite and limit the mandatories to only 3 so you prevent guys from hitting the same 10 shots over and over for 3 minutes.
Does it have to be winner-take-all? For example, why not have $5,000, $3,000 and $2,000 for 1st, 2nd and 3rd best?
Will lock-and-pop routines always be rewarded more than a Gunter Schleirkamp-type, old school routine? It shouldn't depend on who the judges are should it? Would an Ed Corney-type routine be some sort of standard? Transitions are somehow scored?
Since props were declared "illegal" about the time DeMilia's org. showcased them, what other things can make the round more entertaining? (I think Ronnie's Moses getup was the last to be used, right?)
The WBF tried some more entertaining things for the finals and most people look back and say that was a joke. What other things could be incorporated into a night show with out making it seem silly or staged?
Should the audience judge the posing round and take the judges out of the picture completely? Sort of like the people's choice during webcasts...
Those are a few ideas I just picked out of a hat. Anyone else got any?
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no
It's part of the show, it's a chance to make money, it's an opportunity to showcase your physique to the judges, fans, companies, etc...
I guess if anyone believes that going out there half assed will help them in some strange way...so bit it....but no one does that in the amateurs, and no one does that in the pro's even though neither one scores the posing round
Posing is supposed to be an art, NOT entertainment. That is where the fckin problem lies. No wonder you and your bosses accept sequined thongs and grinding hips.
The art of posing has been demoted to a cheap vegas act, a filler show, a b side single , An afterthought when it should have been the centerpiece.
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Posing is supposed to be an art, NOT entertainment. That is where the fckin problem lies. No wonder you and your bosses accept sequined thongs and grinding hips.
The art of posing has been demoted to a cheap vegas act, a filler show, a b side single , An afterthought when it should have been the centerpiece.
You might as well be trying to argue the merits of Vermeer to someone who watches America Idol.
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NYC is right on the money here Chick. You need to stop and seriously think about this for a min...because all you are doing is lowering the bar instead of raising it. In other words, you are placating and championing mediorcity, by doing away with one of the few things that any smart competitor can use to his advantage: His presentation.
Let me ask everyone a question... Isnt one of the things that fascinated us with this "Sport," was watching Pumping Iron, and seeing how much thought and attention to presentation, people like Arnold, Franco, Corney, etc put into it? It was a craft, and it was unthinkable to not to dedicate a lot of time and effort to it. It shouldn't be surprising that the same people also were at the top of their craft...because they took all aspects of it seriously.
To negate the emphasis on posing, rather then trying to come up with ways to make it more important, (while still remaining practical), is to piss on an endeavor that has allready been tarnished enough. Its time to step up Chick, and do something to better this "Sport," because this new change sure as hell isn't the answer. All it means is a few more paydays for Melvin.
M!
Again...you speak as someone who knows not what he talks about...
First, no, it wasnt one of the things that made Pumnping Iron fun to watch..it was Arnold and Louie, and the Universe competition and the PERSONALITIES that were brought to the screen, and the look at a sub culture previuosly unknown to the masses...the posing had little to nothing to do with whether or not it was interesting.
So, a "smart" competitor uses the posing round to their advantage? How does one do that when the posing round HAS NEVER BEEN JUDGED???
Is it a few more paydays for Melvin? Or is it the ideal opportunity for everyone to elevate their game and bring something to the table worthy of winning 10, 20K?
The posing routines are simply a showcase for the fans...there is plenty of competition to be seen via the prejudging and finals/ posedown.
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Do IFBB judges openly admit to not judging the posing round?
thats funny, because the scores seem to change after that round.
again bob Chick, speaking out of his ass, to further his agenda
Again...you speak as someone who knows not what he talks about...
First, no, it wasnt one of the things that made Pumnping Iron fun to watch..it was Arnold and Louie, and the Universe competition and the PERSONALITIES that were brought to the screen, and the look at a sub culture previuosly unknown to the masses...the posing had little to nothing to do with whether or not it was interesting.
So, a "smart" competitor uses the posing round to their advantage? How does one do that when the posing round HAS NEVER BEEN JUDGED???
Is it a few more paydays for Melvin? Or is it the ideal opportunity for everyone to elevate their game and bring something to the table worthy of winning 10, 20K?
The posing routines are simply a showcase for the fans...there is plenty of competition to be seen via the prejudging and finals/ posedown.
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Do IFBB judges openly admit to not judging the posing round?
thats funny, because the scores seem to change after that round.
again bob Chick, speaking out of his ass, to further his agenda
Thery judge it...as another physique round...thus the reason for change
again Karu speaking out of his ass
And what would be my "agenda", exactly? Putting more money in athletes pockets?
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a lot people getting on their high horse about "art" and this and that but if the competitors and the majority of fans are not interested then whats the problem?
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... shouldn't some standards or criteria be made or established so competitors know what is expected? For example, in Fitness competitions, the routine round has certain standards and movements for strength, balance and athleticism that need to be incorporated into their routines to score well. Could that be established in the men's posing round? For example, 5 of the 7 mandatory poses have to be incorporated or maybe do the opposite and limit the mandatories to only 3 so you prevent guys from hitting the same 10 shots over and over for 3 minutes... Transitions are somehow scored?completely? Sort of like the people's choice during webcasts... Those are a few ideas I just picked out of a hat. Anyone else got any?
These are some excellent concepts to consider.
To make bodybuilding a SPORT you need to have criteria that the athletes and the fans can identify with and can follow. Things like certain types of poses being compulsory in a free posing routine as well as marking transitions, the way the athlete makes use of the music together with the body in motion. I mean if the best physique doesn't win because the athlete missed out on one pose, then too bad! Next time he won't make such an elementary mistake. In the end, after maybe a few teething problems, the best man will eventually and more than likely, regularly win.
If you limit the number of athletes then you will not be over run with scores of bring routines (though there will be of course such routines). You could then use the posing round as a real way to separate those who are in the mix and you would also give the sport a good shot of respectability.
The IFBB need only to consider the way that other artistic sports are organised and run.
Weight training is EVERYWHERE. It is not some underground activity. By making the athletes into 'heroic-types' you will only help spread a sense of acceptance and dignity for the sport that a non-fan can at least give respect to even if they do not care for it.
But please, gyrating hips and thongs? I mean, for heaven's sake, need it be any more clear?!?!?
The simple point is that by allowing bodybuilding to BE ABLE to be made use of by the mainstream, you will create further revenue opportunities for the sport and by extension, for the athletes.
Again, this is all basic sports marketing and it boggles the mind that the IFBB seemingly has not made use of any of this. Bodybuilding is very much a case of the small fish building for itself a smaller pond.
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Chic, ANSWER my question please.
Then STILL IS IT A OBLIGATION FOR THEM TO DO THE POSING ROUTINE?
That's a great point for this new system.. if there is ZERO judging and you are in a show where say you have Kai, Melvin, Darrem, etc at a show and stand ZERO chance of beating them then why even waste your time?
Save your energy for the COMPETITION
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These are some excellent concepts to consider.
To make bodybuilding a SPORT you need to have criteria that the athletes and the fans can identify with and can follow. Things like certain types of poses being compulsory in a free posing routine as well as marking transitions, the way the athlete makes use of the music together with the body in motion. I mean if the best physique doesn't win because the athlete missed out on one pose, then too bad! Next time he won't make such an elementary mistake. In the end, after maybe a few teething problems, the best man will eventually and more than likely, regularly win.
THis aint gymnastics, and there arent required elements, other than the mandatory poses, which they all do in comparison...so a guy misses a pose, and he loses a competition despite having the best physique? Kind of defeats the point of the competition..
If you limit the number of athletes then you will not be over run with scores of bring routines (though there will be of course such routines). You could then use the posing round as a real way to separate those who are in the mix and you would also give the sport a good shot of respectability.
Limiting the number of athletes limits the fan base, exposure, etc...you put way too much emphasis on the posng routine as the saviour...the REAL competition is in the comparisons/ mandatories, not in assessing a physique alone
The IFBB need only to consider the way that other artistic sports are organised and run.
Which are diametrically different than our own...we have the distinction of being totally subjective, and based in opinion
Weight training is EVERYWHERE. It is not some underground activity. By making the athletes into 'heroic-types' you will only help spread a sense of acceptance and dignity for the sport that a non-fan can at least give respect to even if they do not care for it.
So you figure a traditional routine will do the trick, huh? Giving respect doesnt automatically equate into dollars, or increased fan base...there are may sports I respect, but dont have any interest in
But please, gyrating hips and thongs? I mean, for heaven's sake, need it be any more clear?!?!?
Thongs? Never seen one on stage... How many guys gyrate the hips? I never did, dont recall Jay doing it or Phil, or Branch, or many others
The simple point is that by allowing bodybuilding to BE ABLE to be made use of by the mainstream, you will create further revenue opportunities for the sport and by extension, for the athletes.
Mainstream has no interest because of many reasons, not bigger trunks, or more traditional routines or anything else will make it accepted...it is what it is...people simply cannot relate to such an extreme loo. Mainstream people relate to mainstream things...
Again, this is all basic sports marketing and it boggles the mind that the IFBB seemingly has not made use of any of this. Bodybuilding is very much a case of the small fish building for itself a smaller pond.
It's not basic sports marketing, as BB is not basic sports in any sense of the word
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That's a great point for this new system.. if there is ZERO judging and you are in a show where say you have Kai, Melvin, Darrem, etc at a show and stand ZERO chance of beating them then why even waste your time?
Save your energy for the COMPETITION
That doesnt even make any sense...if the routines arent being judged...then how is it a guy has no chance to beat them?
If you believe you have no chance to beat guys, then you shouldnt be competing to begin with
The competition is at the prejudging,,,which happens BEFORE the finals
THINK before you type
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That doesnt even make any sense...if the routines arent being judged...then how is it a guy has no chance to beat them?
If you believe you have no chance to beat guys, then you shouldnt be competing to begin with
The competition is at the prejudging,,,which happens BEFORE the finals
THINK before you type
bob i heard about whats going on w the timeout board and your troubles-i hope everything works out ok :)
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most popular pro's are men of color. it could be said that BB will never go mainstream because it's tough to market a sport to a general public when most of it's competitors are a racial minority flexing oilded muscles. it's an odd sport in deed and i'm not even talking about the wardrobe.
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Sigh...
I see where this is going.
I guess this is what happens when a pond is defended by drinking up its water.
1. Introduce required elements and value them according to what criteria you would like to see rewarded,
2. Make sure your criteria has a connection with the past and with the future (in this way you tap into tradition as well possible new markets),
3. Understand how the sport can be made use of by people outside of the sport.
I mean, there are so many things that can be done but all of the repsonses to what some of what has been suggested in this thread has been nothing more than reactionary posts that show no imagination and reek of justifications.
There is no shame in being wrong!
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Sigh...
I see where this is going.
I guess this is what happens when a pond is defended by drinking up its water.
1. Introduce required elements and value them according to what criteria you would like to see rewarded,
2. Make sure your criteria has a connection with the past and with the future (in this way you tap into tradition as well possible new markets),
3. Understand how the sport can be made use of by people outside of the sport.
I mean, there are so many things that can be done but all of the repsonses to what some of what has been suggested in this thread has been nothing more than reactionary posts that show no imagination and reek of justifications.
There is no shame in being wrong!
Every comment made has been responded to and answered...if it doesnt agree with YOUR opinion, I guess it's wrong, according to you...right?
There are many years of tradition, it doesnt mean they had it right. Every sport progresses and changes with the times.
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Using profit as the only measure of somethings value is what is wrong with America today
check your facts sister, america's always been like this, and that's why it's number 1. DOLLA DOLLA BILLZ YALL!
Olympia's not put on for "the love of the game", it's for money, pure and simple. Let these prancers do whatever they want on stage, as long as there's a shitty protein brand banner above them, it's all fine by me.
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How about having the fans have a full or partial vote on the posing round by texting votes like American Idol?
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Every comment made has been responded to and answered...if it doesnt agree with YOUR opinion, I guess it's wrong, according to you...right?
There are many years of tradition, it doesnt mean they had it right. Every sport progresses and changes with the times.
x 2
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fixed
Sounds like the "wounds" are still fresh...
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this may have been 21 years ago but it is light years ahead of what anyone today could pull off... so much for progress...
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this may have been 21 years ago but it is light years ahead of what anyone today could pull off... so much for progress...
Yet, he managed to only place 4th in the posing round...
case and point
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It's not basic sports marketing, as BB is not basic sports in any sense of the word
This response sums up why bodybuilding is eating itself alive.
It's not necessary to agree with everything that has been suggested but the responses given offer little in the way of constructive criticism.
We know bodybuilding is not mainstream.
We know the posing round has not really been judged.
We know bodybuilding is basically about conditioned muscle.
We know that bodybuilding is not gymnastics.
We know all of these things and so simply repeating them as a 'response' doesn't serve the debate or the discussion one iota.
If we want to improve things (and I assume that is what we want to do) then it is encumbent upon the IFBB and its representatives to be able to discuss the issues, their causes, implications and possibilities, intelligently and with a sense of awareness.
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This response sums up why bodybuilding is eating itself alive.
It's not necessary to agree with everything that has been suggested but the responses given offer little in the way of constructive criticism.
We know bodybuilding is not mainstream.
We know the posing round has not really been judged.
We know bodybuilding is basically about conditioned muscle.
We know that bodybuilding is not gymnastics.
We know all of these things and so simply repeating them as a 'response' doesn't serve the debate or the discussion one iota.
If we want to improve things (and I assume that is what we want to do) then it is encumbent upon the IFBB and its representatives to be able to discuss the issues, their causes, implications and possibilities, intelligently and with a sense of awareness.
We do discuss the issues...just because you are not a part of it, doesnt mean it doesnt take place.
As I said, it HAS been explained, over and over...you're either unwilling, or incapable of understanding what has been answered.
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Yet, he managed to only place 4th in the posing round...
case and point
Case and point indeed...
If the value of such posing wasn't weighted properly, then maybe, just maybe, it ought to be?!
How the potential of such posing for the sport and beyond is being missed by the IFBB is beyond me.
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Bob, you mentioned last night on PBW that you're in favor of the judges bringing out competitors for additional comparisons, if needed, after the posing round. That would possibly enable someone who is not in the top 6 after pre-judging to suddenly move into the top 6 right before the posedown. Isn't that creating a third round of scoring and devaluing the pre-judging?
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But for the fans, nothing really has been answered.
This is what is so frustrating. Most of the answers I have read have just been the repeating of the supposed negatives, negatives that seem to destroy any chance of improving them.
Anyway, I'm sure you are sick and tired of reading what I have to write so I will call it quits for now.
I also hope you understand that I am not intentionally personally attacking you or anybody. I'm just one of those fans that would simply like to see the potential of bodybuilding realised.
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Case and point indeed...
If the value of such posing wasn't weighted properly, then maybe, just maybe, it ought to be?!
How the potential of such posing for the sport and beyond is being missed by the IFBB is beyond me.
It's all "beyond you"...which is why you're having such a tough time understanding it. Maybe thats the problem...
So whats the "value" of posing? 10%? 40%? 90%? you cant compare diametrically different routines...
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Bob, you mentioned last night on PBW that you're in favor of the judges bringing out competitors for additional comparisons, if needed, after the posing round. That would possibly enable someone who is not in the top 6 after pre-judging to suddenly move into the top 6 right before the posedown. Isn't that creating a third round of scoring and devaluing the pre-judging?
No...I'm interested in the guys being compared fairly and the judges having the opportunity to get it right by whatever and however many rounds necessary.
PRE judging is just that...PRE. As it doesnt represent ALL the judging, or the culmination of the judging...thats why the value for Sat has been increased
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It's all "beyond you"...which is why you're having such a tough time understanding it. Maybe thats the problem...
So whats the "value" of posing? 10%? 40%? 90%? you cant compare diametrically different routines...
That kind of thinking is self-defeating.
They are able to do it in the other artistic/creative sports.
Why not bodybuilding?
(sorry, I couldn't resist responding to this post...)
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But for the fans, nothing really has been answered.
This is what is so frustrating. Most of the answers I have read have just been the repeating of the supposed negatives, negatives that seem to destroy any chance of improving them.
Anyway, I'm sure you are sick and tired of reading what I have to write so I will call it quits for now.
I also hope you understand that I am not intentionally personally attacking you or anybody. I'm just one of those fans that would simply like to see the potential of bodybuilding realised.
The positives have been outlined and answered...you just choose to not respond to them.
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That kind of thinking is self-defeating.
They are able to do it in the other artistic/creative sports.
Name one
Why not bodybuilding?
(sorry, I couldn't resist responding to this post...)
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You're not serious are you?
- gymnastics
- rhythmic gymnastics
- figure skating
- ballroom dancing
- equestrian
- synchronised swimming
- cheerleading
- etc etc
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No...I'm interested in the guys being compared fairly and the judges having the opportunity to get it right by whatever and however many rounds necessary.
PRE judging is just that...PRE. As it doesnt represent ALL the judging, or the culmination of the judging...thats why the value for Sat has been increased
If the judges can arbitrarily create a third round that changes their pre-judging placings right before the posedown, then that opens the door for all kinds of scandals. I thought the goal was to have pre-judging count as 50% and the posedown count as 50%. If you can make the top 6 after pre-judging, then suddenly be removed from the top 6 right before the posedown (by some unscored round), that's opening a can of worms.
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You're not serious are you?
- gymnastics
- rhythmic gymnastics
- figure skating
- ballroom dancing
- equestrian
- synchronised swimming
- cheerleading
- etc etc
What are they able to do? Gymnastics, figure skating have their own issues with judging and controversy because of the very nature of subjective judging...
We dont use props as some of the other sports you mention do....so you can eliminate them
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If the judges can arbitrarily create a third round that changes their pre-judging placings right before the posedown, then that opens the door for all kinds of scandals. I thought the goal was to have pre-judging count as 50% and the posedown count as 50%. If you can make the top 6 after pre-judging, then suddenly be removed from the top 6 right before the posedown (by some unscored round), that's opening a can of worms.
Can of worms? Judging is judging...I personally dont care how many rounds they need, as long as they get it right and the guys have an opportunity to be compared...I guess they couldnt just open that Pandors Box in the prejudging, right? They would have to wait until the night show?
You're grasping at straws...
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Of course there are issues but the judging criteria is very clear for both the fans and the athletes. By extension, the judging becomes accountable.
As for the use of props, that is inconsequential to the issue.
It is not a matter of 'eliminating them' because they have different criteria or styles or equipment or whatever. The issue is how these sports have come to terms with the aspect of subjectivity.
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Well said...
Thwe bottom line is that the "posing round" has never been scored as such, and gave the false impression that this was a round in which someone with the best posing could actually move up...
By eliminating the actual scoring of this round, we open it up to awarding PRIZE MONEY to someone that actually HAS the best routine/ most entertaining, etc...without compromising the judging.
The other objective was having the posedown count..if were going to have 2 day shows, then BOTH should count as such, and athletes should have a chance to catch up/ show that they have the better physique. The posing at a BB show is a showcase of the physique and we need to start expanding the thinking into more entertainment and putting out "shows" rather than competitions (which are for the most part, a giant snooze fest)...prejudging= competition...finals=entertainment
Idiotic - as always...You keep giving the false impression that symmetry round is for symmetry only... posing round for posing...etc...when everyone knows that IN EVERY ROUND PHYSIQUES ARE BEING JUDGED - and "rounds" only determine which poses would be required for athletes to do...
#1) In symmetry round we have 4 relax poses - and judges are not judging "symmetry only" but as Jim Manion answered to me at 1997 Mr. Olympia press conference: judges are judging BEST PHYSIQUES in every round...
#2) In muscularity round we have 8 mandatory poses - and judges are judging (again) best physiques in those exact mandatory poses...
#3) In free posing round we, the athletes have freedom to present to judges and the audience our physiques in poses other than mandatory (4 relax + 8 compulsory)... ::) - genius
Posing round was never intended to be judged for "best posing routine", best posing skills...movement, choreography...
but JUST LIKE OTHER ROUNDS - for the best PHYSIQUE...
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Of course there are issues but the judging criteria is very clear for both the fans and the athletes. By extension, the judging becomes accountable.
As for the use of props, that is inconsequential to the issue.
It is not a matter of 'eliminating them' because they have different criteria or styles or equipment or whatever. The issue is how these sports have come to terms with the aspect of subjectivity.
The judging criteria is only clear in that thye have mandatory moves that must be done (i.e-floor routine in gymnastics)...but the artistic score is and has always been at th forefront of controversy because its completely subjective...now we get to bb, where the ENTIRE sport is subjective and we dont have any athletic elements...now were just back to opinion and interpretation...
The use of props is NOT inconsequential to the issue...with them, we look like a circus and the fans dont like it (ie.-WBF) without them, it is accepted but limit the amount one can be creative with a posing routine...
The only real issue is elimination of a outdated, useless scoring round that limits the creativity and potential money earning to athletes...
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Yet, he managed to only place 4th in the posing round...
case and point
He was 4th as judges saw his physique - as 4th in this "free posing round"...If POSING or movement would be what is being judged - any professional dancers with no muscles whatsoever could win Mr. Olympia posing round...
Bob, it is painful to listen to all your nonsense...
BTW - how many athletes did vote for this change?
And I asked ATHLETES, not how many OFFICIALS...as we all know this "order" is coming from papa Giepetto...and you Pinocchio have to convince the athletes...somehow...Hmm mm?
Can you provide list of majority of IFBB pros asking for this change?
Or - yet another "Bobservation" is coming up...
BTW - for those of you who didn't get new addition of Webster Dictionary:
[Bobservation - inability to tell the truth if your life depends on it...]
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If there is going to be a best poser award for the free posing routines, there should be some ground rules. I'd start with no dancing and each mandatory pose can only be shown once. That would even the field and get the guys thinking creatively to fill their 2 minute routines. One last rule, no walking back and forth across the stage asking for applause. If you want applause, bring a good routine.
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Idiotic - as always...You keep giving the false impression that symmetry round is for symmetry only... posing round for posing...etc...when everyone knows that IN EVERY ROUND PHYSIQUES ARE BEING JUDGED - and "rounds" only determine which poses would be required for athletes to do...
True, which makes calling them "symmetry round"/ "posing round", etc....pretty much obsolete as it's misleading and confusing for the athletes and fans
#1) In symmetry round we have 4 relax poses - and judges are not judging "symmetry only" but as Jim Manion answered to me at 1997 Mr. Olympia press conference: judges are judging BEST PHYSIQUES in every round...
Physique round #1
#2) In muscularity round we have 8 mandatory poses - and judges are judging (again) best physiques in those exact mandatory poses...
Physique round #2
#3) In free posing round we, the athletes have freedom to present to judges and the audience our physiques in poses other than mandatory (4 relax + 8 compulsory)... ::) - genius
Physique round #3
Posing round was never intended to be judged for "best posing routine", best posing skills...movement, choreography...
but JUST LIKE OTHER ROUNDS - for the best PHYSIQUE...
Which is the very reason it's being changed...
Physique round #4
Whats idiotic, is even wasting my time responding to you, as you have as much to do with the IFBB as any anonymous gimmick on this site...but I'll answer for everyone else to see.
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Whats idiotic, is even wasting my time responding to you, as you have as much to do with the IFBB as any anonymous gimmick on this site...but I'll answer for everyone else to see.
Ouch Bobby The Clown stating yet another nonsense...
I have as much to do with the IFBB as any anonymous gimmick on this site...?
I had 10 consecutive Mr. Olympia qualifications, title of the IFBB PRO Champion and 72 IFBB pro shows "under my belt".
I've assisted numerous IFBB pros throughout the years and helped many promoters in their efforts to put great IFBB shows - for the fans...
My unjustifiable suspension should be embarrassment for the Federation and for the record - I'll give you a chance to show your "testicular fortitude" once again...Bozo.
You already owe me $50 K for one of your common, typical, everyday "getbig" stupidity (hence saying: stupid is what stupid Bob does) - betting me that you were able to purchase Humalog - WITHOUT PRESCRIPTION in particular store in Southern California...and I guarantee that you didn't...All you could get was Humulin R, N, U, L...and maybe mixes...but 100% for sure - NOT HUMALOG!
Not now, not ever...as simply - anyone could check rules and regulations of California pharmaceutical laws...and realize that Humalog was available only through valid Rx - medical prescription...
So, after you've put your both feet in your (fortunately...I guess?) big mouth - and realized that you are in trouble - as your usual chicken-shit self with zero integrity - what did you do...?
Of course - instead of admitting your mistake - you manipulated the truth...as always.
Whats more - you felt the need to challenge me and bet me...and not just bet me...but throw some fortune cookies...I mean balls at me - checking my "testicular fortitude"...
So, I called your bluff and raised your bet from $5000 to $50000...as anything else would be considered - lousy "estrogenous foreplay" in comparison...
Now, you can take me up on double or nothing...as I am going to tell you that I am coming back to MY CHOSEN FEDERATION, where I spent most of my life in...and as you are suggesting otherwise - here is your opportunity to "get me"...
You want to bet that I will NOT be reinstated (as you are so arrogantly saying)?
Common Bobby - check those raisins down there and put your money where your mouth is ... ;)
I'll be glad to accept your offer.
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Milos has spoken.
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Milos has spoken.
A-men!
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Milos, would you say this is your best?
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http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=149104.0
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=278131.0
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=226818.0
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=213239.0
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=87714.0
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=180962.0
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=286053.0
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=254733.0
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=287720.0
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=67197.0
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=154358.0
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=273732.0
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=217009.0
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=207840.0
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=148782.0
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=145274.0
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=80908.0
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=214266.0
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=95877.0
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=96866.0
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=92983.0
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=173615.0
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=213169.0
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=95837.0
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=89198.0
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=217048.0
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=215142.0
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=206764.0
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=87958.0
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php
action=search2;params=YWR2YW5jZWR8J3wwfCJ8YnJkfCd8MXwifHNob3dfY29tcGxldGV8J3x8InxzdWJqZWN0X29ubHl8J3x8Inxzb3J0fCd8cmVsZXZhbmNlfCJ8c29ydF9kaXJ8J3xkZXNjfCJ8c2VhcmNofCd8aWZiYiBwcm9zIHZvdGU=;start=0
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C'mon, you bitches should arrange a good workout and smoke a pipe afterward.
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Ouch Bobby The Clown stating yet another nonsense...
I have as much to do with the IFBB as any anonymous gimmick on this site...?
I had 10 consecutive Mr. Olympia qualifications, title of the IFBB PRO Champion and 72 IFBB pro shows "under my belt".
I've assisted numerous IFBB pros throughout the years and helped many promoters in their efforts to put great IFBB shows - for the fans...
My unjustifiable suspension should be embarrassment for the Federation and for the record - I'll give you a chance to show your "testicular fortitude" once again...Bozo.
No need...what you DID was in the past. In the PRESENT, you're not a part of the IFBB in any way shape or form...fact is..you're a FORMER member of the Pro League, that means you have NO impact and no say on what goes on TODAY.
You already owe me $50 K for one of your common, typical, everyday "getbig" stupidity (hence saying: stupid is what stupid Bob does) - betting me that you were able to purchase Humalog - WITHOUT PRESCRIPTION in particular store in Southern California...and I guarantee that you didn't...All you could get was Humulin R, N, U, L...and maybe mixes...but 100% for sure - NOT HUMALOG!
Not now, not ever...as simply - anyone could check rules and regulations of California pharmaceutical laws...and realize that Humalog was available only through valid Rx - medical prescription...
No one owes you anything moron, as you would have no way of knowing who I know or what transpired...fact is, I was able to get BOTH without Rx...prove I wasnt
So, after you've put your both feet in your (fortunately...I guess?) big mouth - and realized that you are in trouble - as your usual chicken-shit self with zero integrity - what did you do...?
Of course - instead of admitting your mistake - you manipulated the truth...as always.
Again, no need to manipulate anything...If we were ever in a position to have a polygraph taken, we would see who "wins" the bet...you're just too fuckin stupid to know what it is you're betting...It makes no difference what the law states, only what I was able to do
Whats more - you felt the need to challenge me and bet me...and not just bet me...but throw some fortune cookies...I mean balls at me - checking my "testicular fortitude"...
So, I called your bluff and raised your bet from $5000 to $50000...as anything else would be considered - lousy "estrogenous foreplay" in comparison...
Now, you can take me up on double or nothing...as I am going to tell you that I am coming back to MY CHOSEN FEDERATION, where I spent most of my life in...and as you are suggesting otherwise - here is your opportunity to "get me"...
You want to bet that I will NOT be reinstated (as you are so arrogantly saying)?
I dont give a rats ass either way...
Common Bobby - check those raisins down there and put your money where your mouth is ... ;)
I'll be glad to accept your offer.
Accept this....I dont care. You mean nothing to me whether you're back in the club or not...
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Milos, would you say this is your best?
Yes - that was the look I considered "ideal" (for me - that is...)...but that would get me 10th place at the Olympia...so I made a mistake and listened to "experts" - got 20+ pounds bigger/heavier - and lost "my body"...
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And just when I was ready to make the comeback...I got suspended...
2006 - October..in Romania with Mr. Olympia Jay Cutler
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Yes - that was the look I considered "ideal" (for me - that is...)...but that would get me 10th place at the Olympia...so I made a mistake and listened to "experts" - got 20+ pounds bigger/heavier - and lost "my body"...
Wow Milos, you're hot. If I ever had to fuck a guy, I'd choose you (no homo).
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Yet, he managed to only place 4th in the posing round...
case and point
The guy was only 176lbs he probably would have been 6th if he wasn't the best poser... It did contribute to his placing back then.
Problem is the judges got lazy around 1996...
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No one owes you anything moron, as you would have no way of knowing who I know or what transpired...fact is, I was able to get BOTH without Rx...prove I wasnt
Moron is that asshole staring at you every time you look in the mirror (checking how is your wig holding in Florida's humidity...)
Now, THIS IS exactly what I am saying by "Bobservations" and manipulations...
As you would like to assume that I would have no way of knowing who you know or what transpired - you are talking big again...but I have already figured you out - puppet...TRUTH finds its way out every time - and I can easily take all your "facts" ::) and prove it to you - without shadow of the doubt that you might got both Humulin R and Humulin N at the time - without Rx...but HUMALOG - you couldn't possibly...and YES, there is a way of knowing...For MY $50000 bet money that I have won, here on this very board as you were the one checking my testicular fortitude...I'll find MANY WAYS to prove it...You can run but you cannot hide...and I'll collect my money - as I've earned it.
That will teach you a lesson - to be KIND to people and hopefully - to loose that arrogant attitude of yours.
Mustafa owes me money - and I collected partial of that money as I was there at the pro shows where he earned some prize money...With every effort to convince me to let him have it - I didn't. I took what was mine...Probably that might be a reason he is not competing anymore...?
In your case I will PROVE that I won our bet - fairly...with witnesses - your witnesses IF YOU CHOSE TO PICK SOME?
Unfortunately for you - some things are much easier to prove than what people think...and our bet is one of those...so keep hopping that "you got away with it"...
Again, no need to manipulate anything...If we were ever in a position to have a polygraph taken, we would see who "wins" the bet...you're just too fuckin stupid to know what it is you're betting...It makes no difference what the law states, only what I was able to do
IF ?
Like IF is really a question?
WHEN - is much better question to ask...and whenever that is going to happen - I will inform Ron - to come with his camcorder and make getbig special...pay-per-view event...
And stop encouraging yourself that I am just too fuckin stupid to know what is that I am betting...I ALWAYS DO...AND ESPECIALLY something that is posted on public forum for World to see...IN WRITING!!! You imbecile! [ And as you can see I am giving you more IQ points than I should by calling you imbecile rather than idiot - which is my choice of words for you most of the time...but considering that IQ of the idiot is 0-25, imbecile 26-50 and moron 51-70 [thank you for giving me honor of being called moron... ;)I guess...
My choice to call you imbecile was not so much because your mental retardation but more cause of other two things: criminal tendencies and weak-mindedness...all you are paragon for - no doubt.
I dont give a rats ass either way...
Really?
Again, keep hopping and encouraging yourself that you might just get away with it...but you should give a rats ass when you owe someone $50 Grand... ;)
Accept this....I dont care. You mean nothing to me whether you're back in the club or not...
Accept this...I don't think so....I will mean A LOT to you when I get back...a lot of green ones...your greens that you lost due to your obvious imbecility...
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Wow Milos, you're hot. If I ever had to fuck a guy, I'd choose you (no homo).
Nasser, for the last time: get lost!
Try Bobby the puppet...or Bob...but leave me a fuck alone.
Just because my boybest friend is gay doesn't mean I am too...
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back to the debate...
why was there a separate round for presentation (essentially posing) scoring anyway?
in ice skating they do their long program at the finals and technical and artistic scores are given from the one round.
Why can't the judges in bb give presentation scores based on all the rounds as a separate score?
Someone might be great at showing his ass and win the posing award yet not be able to do a single compulsory correctly...
why not have all three rounds and then score 1. size, 2. proportion/symmetry, 3. conditioning, 4. presentation as equal factors?
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No one owes you anything moron, as you would have no way of knowing who I know or what transpired...fact is, I was able to get BOTH without Rx...prove I wasnt
Moron is that asshole staring at you every time you look in the mirror (checking how is your wig holding in Florida's humidity...)
Now, THIS IS exactly what I am saying by "Bobservations" and manipulations...
As you would like to assume that I would have no way of knowing who you know or what transpired - you are talking big again...but I have already figured you out - puppet...TRUTH finds its way out every time - and I can easily take all your "facts" ::) and prove it to you - without shadow of the doubt that you might got both Humulin R and Humulin N at the time - without Rx...but HUMALOG - you couldn't possibly...and YES, there is a way of knowing...For MY $50000 bet money that I have won, here on this very board as you were the one checking my testicular fortitude...I'll find MANY WAYS to prove it...You can run but you cannot hide...and I'll collect my money - as I've earned it.
That will teach you a lesson - to be KIND to people and hopefully - to loose that arrogant attitude of yours.
Mustafa owes me money - and I collected partial of that money as I was there at the pro shows where he earned some prize money...With every effort to convince me to let him have it - I didn't. I took what was mine...Probably that might be a reason he is not competing anymore...?
In your case I will PROVE that I won our bet - fairly...with witnesses - your witnesses IF YOU CHOSE TO PICK SOME?
Unfortunately for you - some things are much easier to prove than what people think...and our bet is one of those...so keep hopping that "you got away with it"...
Again, no need to manipulate anything...If we were ever in a position to have a polygraph taken, we would see who "wins" the bet...you're just too fuckin stupid to know what it is you're betting...It makes no difference what the law states, only what I was able to do
IF ?
Like IF is really a question?
WHEN - is much better question to ask...and whenever that is going to happen - I will inform Ron - to come with his camcorder and make getbig special...pay-per-view event...
And stop encouraging yourself that I am just too fuckin stupid to know what is that I am betting...I ALWAYS DO...AND ESPECIALLY something that is posted on public forum for World to see...IN WRITING!!! You imbecile! [ And as you can see I am giving you more IQ points than I should by calling you imbecile rather than idiot - which is my choice of words for you most of the time...but considering that IQ of the idiot is 0-25, imbecile 26-50 and moron 51-70 [thank you for giving me honor of being called moron... ;)I guess...
My choice to call you imbecile was not so much because your mental retardation but more cause of other two things: criminal tendencies and weak-mindedness...all you are paragon for - no doubt.
I dont give a rats ass either way...
Really?
Again, keep hopping and encouraging yourself that you might just get away with it...but you should give a rats ass when you owe someone $50 Grand... ;)
Accept this....I dont care. You mean nothing to me whether you're back in the club or not...
Accept this...I don't think so....I will mean A LOT to you when I get back...a lot of green ones...your greens that you lost due to your obvious imbecility...
LOL...you need to put the crack pipe down Gumby...you cant prove but two things...Jack and SHIT
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Yet, he managed to only place 4th in the posing round...
case and point
No Chick...you are missing the point entirely... The entire Judging system needs to be overhauled and reconsidered, if Lee Labrada gets 4th in any posing round. That is absurd and both you and I know it. The answer isn't to say, "well the judging is screwed up, so we will just default to having a little sideshow attraction, with a Best Poser award." If the judges cant appropriately asses posing, and score it accordingly, then they sure as hell wont do it when handing out "Best Poser" awards. Again...this just means a few more paydays for Melvin, before this idea is scrapped, and you are towing the line, for another half-assed cause.
OVERHAUL THE SYSTEM, or ROTATE THE JUDGES.
M!
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So whats the "value" of posing? 10%? 40%? 90%? you cant compare diametrically different routines...
Then under this new system how are the judges going to award 10k to the "best" posing routine? Are there going to be defined rules or guidelines as to what constitutes a good posing routine, or will other factors such as audience reaction be taken into account. As you say, you cant compare a Ed Corney type of routine with a Kai Greene routine, so it's just going to come down to the preference of each individual judge, in which case it makes the whole idea seem kind of pointless.
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No Chick...you are missing the point entirely... The entire Judging system needs to be overhauled and reconsidered, if Lee Labrada gets 4th in any posing round. That is absurd and both you and I know it. The answer isn't to say, "well the judging is screwed up, so we will just default to having a little sideshow attraction, with a Best Poser award." If the judges cant appropriately asses posing, and score it accordingly, then they sure as hell wont do it when handing out "Best Poser" awards. Again...this just means a few more paydays for Melvin, before this idea is scrapped, and you are towing the line, for another half-assed cause.
OVERHAUL THE SYSTEM, or ROTATE THE JUDGES.
M!
The point YOU'RE missing is that we dont need ANOTHER round to assess a physique...and certainly not the "posing round". Being the best poser, deosnt equate to being the best PHYSIQUE, necessarily...
Last time I checked, they were still physique competitions
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I believe Wayne Demilia said that the Night of Champions was the first show to have posing routines set to music. I think it was a great marketing angle that brought some creativity and a larger audience to the night show. Whether it is scored or not doesn't change the outcome of the show because it's still a physique competition. I would make it a competition within itself, set some rules, and take it back to a classical display.
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I believe Wayne Demilia said that the Night of Champions was the first show to have posing routines set to music. I think it was a great marketing angle that brought some creativity and a larger audience to the night show. Whether it is scored or not doesn't change the outcome of the show because it's still a physique competition. I would make it a competition within itself, set some rules, and take it back to a classical display.
ahhhhhh....no
I believe Wayne missed it by about 25 years or so
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The use of props is NOT inconsequential to the issue...
Actually, the use of props is inconsequential. Personally, I think the use of props in competition is absurd but their use or not has nothing to do with the issue of how do the other artisitc/creative sports deal with subjectivity.
The only real issue is elimination of a outdated, useless scoring round that limits the creativity and potential money earning to athletes...
You mean like the posedown round?
If you cannot see what separates a reason from a justification than the only replies fans will get are media oneliners and soundbites. If the discussions within the organisation are done with such oneliners and soundbites...
If it is simply a matter of the names of the rounds causing problems, then a useful question you can ask is in what way can the IFBB make best use of what the names imply in order to develop the sport?
The reason this question is useful is because it provides direction for the discussion and debate.
Again, I am not trying to cause problems or get on your nerves or anythng like that.
(so much for me calling it quits with this thread...!)
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The best posing Routine I've seen.. The last half
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Are there going to be defined rules or guidelines as to what constitutes a good posing routine...
Good question.
There ought to be.
The purpose of such rules and guidelines would be to ensure a minimum standard of quality.
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Bob just doesn't know when to quit
(http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/8140/holebh9sg0.jpg)
soon enough he'll hit the other side of the earth considering how much nonsense he is talking.
jt
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Now we see clearly demonstrated why Bob was appointed pro athletes rep. He is one of the backroom, inside boys who makes decisions in the Pro League. The league should be deposited outside the 200 mile limit because the stench is rather tasteless.
Bob could give a rat's ass about bodybuilding and the guys competing. That is why he can be the MC and also comment on the radio about the physiques, etc. The IFBB is nothing but an asskissing organization. Musclemen learn early to cooperate and nothing has changed that I have seen.
Milos should have something to say about judging, not Bob C, patsy extraordinaire.
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those are some monster shoes on the guy in the white suit
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why not judge the whole thing at night?
round 1- determination of the top ten via comparisons-judges figure out their favourite ten not exact placings yet... guys out of top ten are now out... once top ten is determined the scores are thrown out.
round 2- top ten free posing routines - not scored but since the top ten judging is yet to be done the guys try their best to make a good impression before round 3.
round 3- determination of the top 6 via comparisons... 7-10 are now out.... scores are thrown out again.
round 4- posedown and extra comparisons as needed to determine placings 1-6.
with each round the guys get a chance to move up and improve rather than it all be over in the first 5 mins of the prejudging.
the crowd gets to play a part in the show and watch the eliminations and they aren't forced to watch routines of guys out of the top ten.
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That's an interesting idea.
It probably needs some tweaking but at least there is an element of competition in it and it seems set up to increase the tension of the event, hence the atmosphere.
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those are some monster shoes on the guy in the white suit
And look how long his arms are, build like a monkey (no racist)
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Bob, the whole problem here is debasing the posing round into mere entertainment. You are asking people with no skill in entertaining to become entertainers. Can you imagine the hip grinding and sequined costumes we are going to see. It will be worse the ice dancing
It supposed to be The Art of the Pose, not How to entertain Schmoes.
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why not judge the whole thing at night?
round 1- determination of the top ten via comparisons-judges figure out their favourite ten not exact placings yet... guys out of top ten are now out... once top ten is determined the scores are thrown out.
round 2- top ten free posing routines - not scored but since the top ten judging is yet to be done the guys try their best to make a good impression before round 3.
round 3- determination of the top 6 via comparisons... 7-10 are now out.... scores are thrown out again.
round 4- posedown and extra comparisons as needed to determine placings 1-6.
with each round the guys get a chance to move up and improve rather than it all be over in the first 5 mins of the prejudging.
the crowd gets to play a part in the show and watch the eliminations and they aren't forced to watch routines of guys out of the top ten.
That is actually really close to what we have now via the new changes, with the exception of having a prejudging...
I would be all for a one day show, and nixing prejudging, but economically...it wouldnt work
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That's an interesting idea.
It probably needs some tweaking but at least there is an element of competition in it and it seems set up to increase the tension of the event, hence the atmosphere.
tension is the key to interest for people... at each stage in gets more exciting, they still get to see the top ten pose (they don't wanna see 20-25 routines that is boring), and by wiping the scores each round the judges essentially have to judge them 4 times and it gives a guy improving on the day the chance to move up...
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That is actually really close to what we have now via the new changes, with the exception of having a prejudging...
I would be all for a one day show, and nixing prejudging, but economically...it wouldnt work
Could you have a one day show on Saturday night and move the 202 to Friday night with the women? Would the attendance on Friday night really suffer that much?
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Sure would...
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Sure would...
chick all i ask is for the ifbb to move that cocky son of a bitch dexter jackson to 202 class to show him he has powers over him that he has to bow down to.
jt
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chick all i ask is for the ifbb to move that cocky son of a bitch dexter jackson to 202 class to show him he has powers over him that he has to bow down to.
jt
uhhhh.....yeah, sure
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tension is the key to interest for people... at each stage in gets more exciting, they still get to see the top ten pose (they don't wanna see 20-25 routines that is boring), and by wiping the scores each round the judges essentially have to judge them 4 times and it gives a guy improving on the day the chance to move up...
This pretty much sums it all up.
Tension is indeed the key if you want to highlight the sporting aspect.
Also, there needs to be a way for the judging to be at least seen to be accountable and again, I suggest that the IFBB consider how the other artistic/creative sports deal with their issues of subjectivity and how their scoring systems are considered to be accountable (or not).
Surely it would be a good thing if the athletes (and fans) were able to know EXACTLY which areas held them back in the scoring. At the very least, this would give the appearance that bodybuilding was a legitimate competitive activity.
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Chick,
do you even comprehend how you have contradicted yourself?
It has never been judged
Thery judge it
Your agenda is simple.
Make the IFBB just like the NPC.
i.e. move backwards.
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Thery judge it...as another physique round...thus the reason for change
again Karu speaking out of his ass
And what would be my "agenda", exactly? Putting more money in athletes pockets?
LOL...nice leaving out the rest of the sentence to try and make your point
Retard
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OK dumbass
please tell me how
"It has never been judged"
is the same as
"Thery judge it...as another physique round."
answer - they are not the same. They are opposite.
again this logic might be too hard for you to comprehend
you have a uncanny knack of contradicting yourself in every single thread.
genius.
LOL...nice leaving out the rest of the sentence to try and make your point
Retard
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Chick,
do you even comprehend how you have contradicted yourself?
Your agenda is simple.
Make the IFBB just like the NPC.
i.e. move backwards.
LOL!!! even if it was, why do you care?
Chick isn't the "enemy" here, I don't understand why you KY popsicles focus all your attention on the man... it must be du jour and like sheep do...
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Please tell me you're not REALLY that retarded...
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Bob chick thread summary
1) they don't judge the posing round, dammit !
2) wait they do judge the posing round !
3) I'll insult you if you point out my inconsistency!
not very a very bright man.
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They've never judged the posing round based on POSING
They judge the posing round as another PHYSIQUE round
Fuckin retard
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Bob chick thread summary
1) they don't judge the posing round, dammit !
2) wait they do judge the posing round !
3) I'll insult you if you point out my inconsistency!
not very a very bright man.
Dude you're getting destroyed here... I've got goosebump of shame just reading that shit... just walk away bro... the online equivalent of being on your knees and nosebleeding to oblivion.
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Bobby,
but that is not what you stated.
It has never been judged
you have trouble with the english language or is it your memory?
your basic debating skills are weak.
They've never judged the posing round based on POSING
They judge the posing round as another PHYSIQUE round
Fuckin retard
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Again...you speak as someone who knows not what he talks about...
First, no, it wasnt one of the things that made Pumnping Iron fun to watch..it was Arnold and Louie, and the Universe competition and the PERSONALITIES that were brought to the screen, and the look at a sub culture previuosly unknown to the masses...the posing had little to nothing to do with whether or not it was interesting.
So, a "smart" competitor uses the posing round to their advantage? How does one do that when the posing round HAS NEVER BEEN JUDGED???
Is it a few more paydays for Melvin? Or is it the ideal opportunity for everyone to elevate their game and bring something to the table worthy of winning 10, 20K?
The posing routines are simply a showcase for the fans...there is plenty of competition to be seen via the prejudging and finals/ posedown.
retard
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Chick isn't the "enemy" here, I don't understand why you KY popsicles focus all your attention on the man... it must be du jour and like sheep do...
There's a couple of them who are at least funny and creative about it (like db2431). But most of the dickheads here needlessly jump on him probably because it makes them feel like they're someone significant, esp. when Bob replies back, lol. And it's always the same boring shit that's been mentioned a trillion times before, like The Mirage, Bob's hair, Bob's sense of fashion etc etc
To quote Winged Lion, "Yaaaaaaaaaawn"
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uhhhh.....yeah, sure
cool awesome ty bob for the awesome reply!!!
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Bobby you are sooo fucking stupid that I'll explain it step by step
the posing round HAS NEVER BEEN JUDGED??
is not the same thing as
the posing round is judged based on physiques
your own contradictory words btw
Bobby go back to selling drugs, this stuff is above your intellect
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Looks like it's back to being banned for you Hank Wood...
Enjoy your last night
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Going back to topic, if the posing round was only ever scored on physique, is there any reason why introducing a posing ability element into the round would be considered a bad idea?
Has the IFBB considered the idea of posing ability to separate the physiques and if they have, on what grounds was it rejected?
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For years it has been widely known that the posing was judged on the physique and not on the posing itself. The IFBB has decided to make a rule change because it was realized that it was pointless to judge another round based on the physique.
When every competitor is seen individually, how do you do comparisons? By memory? It always seemed like a pointless round to me.
By the way, does the NABBA score a posing round based on actual posing ability? What about the WABBA?
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They decided to make the rule change, fair enough, but I think that this rule change lacks vision. Surely there is more long term benefit to be had in having a posing round - or at least in having posing ability judged - than in not?
By reducing the number of competitive variables, you also decrease the number of elements that can be marketed and by extension, the number of possible points of attraction.
Like I said, it feels as if bodybuilding is drinking all of the water from its own pond...
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They decided to make the rule change, fair enough, but I think that this rule change lacks vision. Surely there is more long term benefit to be had in having a posing round - or at least in having posing ability judged - than in not?
By reducing the number of competitive variables, you also decrease the number of elements that can be marketed and by extension, the number of possible points of attraction.
Like I said, it feels as if bodybuilding is drinking all of the water from its own pond...
You seem very technical.
Are you a technician?
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don't judge the posing round but have the main comparisons for the top ten after it (lots of 3 men comparisons like the old days not 5 or 6 men callouts) and you'd see guys pose better since they know they still haven't be placed yet... that would work
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They decided to make the rule change, fair enough, but I think that this rule change lacks vision. Surely there is more long term benefit to be had in having a posing round - or at least in having posing ability judged - than in not?
By reducing the number of competitive variables, you also decrease the number of elements that can be marketed and by extension, the number of possible points of attraction.
Like I said, it feels as if bodybuilding is drinking all of the water from its own pond...
LOL
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They decided to make the rule change, fair enough, but I think that this rule change lacks vision. Surely there is more long term benefit to be had in having a posing round - or at least in having posing ability judged - than in not?
By reducing the number of competitive variables, you also decrease the number of elements that can be marketed and by extension, the number of possible points of attraction.
Like I said, it feels as if bodybuilding is drinking all of the water from its own pond...
just cause you gave that sample of No Xplode jacked up with caffiene a go don't mean its ok to go sprouting horseshit on here :D
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Does this mean kai greene will stop dry humping the stage?
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Does this mean kai greene will stop dry humping the stage?
nope it means he will hopefully get rewarded for it i.e. cash prizes...
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Does this mean kai greene will stop dry humping the stage?
Why...will you be disappointed?
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Why...will you be disappointed?
Once again, chickendildo has gay on the brain.....
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YOU'RE the one talking about Kai dry humping, and YOU'RE the one using "dildo" in my name (like a 9 year old)....and IM the one gaying it up???
LOL....right
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Is it wrong for this young fella to watch his Olympia and Arnold classic DVDs with some semblance of respectability and see an actual display of contest i.e not feel ashamed and embarrassed when his mum or dad takes an interest to the screen to find what appears to be deviant
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YOU'RE the one talking about Kai dry humping, and YOU'RE the one using "dildo" in my name (like a 9 year old)....and IM the one gaying it up???
LOL....right
I asked a legitimate question, and you once again had to go and put a gay spin on it, implying that i would be dissapointed if he stopped doing said act.
So yes, chickendildo, you are the one gaying it up.....
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I asked a legitimate question, and you once again had to go and put a gay spin on it, implying that i would be dissapointed if he stopped doing said act.
So yes, chickendildo, you are the one gaying it up.....
And I asked a legitimate question back...would you be disappointed? As your question made no reference to your preference either way...
Little defensive are we? perhaps you need to look a little deeper as to why you automaticly think "gay" and start defending your manhood...next thing, you'll be posting pics of naked chicks saying..."see? I like girls..."
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And I asked a legitimate question back...would you be disappointed? As your question made no reference to your preference either way...
Little defensive are we? perhaps you need to look a little deeper as to why you automaticly think "gay" and start defending your manhood...next thing, you'll be posting pics of naked chicks saying..."see? I like girls..."
Why would i be dissapointed? Funny question for someone who always claims everyone else brings up/starts the gay stuff. I know you have been parading around in a thong on stage for men for most of your life, but not all of us are gay, bobert.
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You seem very technical.
Are you a technician?
Not at all, but in this case, with soundbites being expressed as if they were a rationale, I tried to make my points clear and concise so that people wouldn't mistake what I wanted to say.
Adult-level discussions seem to go missing in many discussions in bodybuilding.
I noticed Chick laughing at what I wrote which is a shame really, as I tried to approach the discussion in an adult fashion.
You can either make it easy for people outside of bodybuilding to turn away from it, or you can find ways that can be used to attract them.
From a marketing perspective, that is the crux of it all.
And from an athletic/sports perspective, it would be interesting to hear how improving the standard of posing as well as the judging process and its accountability would be detrimental to the sport.
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Chick,
do you enjoy Kai Greene humping the stage?
And I asked a legitimate question back...would you be disappointed? As your question made no reference to your preference either way...
Little defensive are we? perhaps you need to look a little deeper as to why you automaticly think "gay" and start defending your manhood...next thing, you'll be posting pics of naked chicks saying..."see? I like girls..."
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who is hank wood?
Looks like it's back to being banned for you Hank Wood...
Enjoy your last night
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Code Duello: The Rules of Dueling
Reprinted from "American Duels and Hostile Encounters," Chilton Books, 1963.
The Code Duello, covering the practice of dueling and points of honor, was drawn up and settled at Clonmel Summer Assizes, 1777, by gentlemen-delegates of Tipperary, Galway, Sligo, Mayo and Roscommon, and prescribed for general adoption throughout Ireland. The Code was generally also followed in England and on the Continent with some slight variations. In America, the principal rules were followed, although occasionally there were some glaring deviations.
Rule 1. The first offense requires the first apology, though the retort may have been more offensive than the insult. Example: A tells B he is impertinent, etc. B retorts that he lies; yet A must make the first apology because he gave the first offense, and then (after one fire) B may explain away the retort by a subsequent apology.
Rule 2. But if the parties would rather fight on, then after two shots each (but in no case before), B may explain first, and A apologize afterward.
N.B. The above rules apply to all cases of offenses in retort not of stronger class than the example.
Rule 3. If a doubt exist who gave the first offense, the decision rests with the seconds; if they won't decide, or can't agree, the matter must proceed to two shots, or to a hit, if the challenger require it.
Rule 4. When the lie direct is the first offense, the aggressor must either beg pardon in express terms; exchange two shots previous to apology; or three shots followed up by explanation; or fire on till a severe hit be received by one party or the other.
Rule 5. As a blow is strictly prohibited under any circumstances among gentlemen, no verbal apology can be received for such an insult. The alternatives, therefore -- the offender handing a cane to the injured party, to be used on his own back, at the same time begging pardon; firing on until one or both are disabled; or exchanging three shots, and then asking pardon without proffer of the cane.
If swords are used, the parties engage until one is well blooded, disabled, or disarmed; or until, after receiving a wound, and blood being drawn, the aggressor begs pardon.
N.B. A disarm is considered the same as a disable. The disarmer may (strictly) break his adversary's sword; but if it be the challenger who is disarmed, it is considered as ungenerous to do so.
In the case the challenged be disarmed and refuses to ask pardon or atone, he must not be killed, as formerly; but the challenger may lay his own sword on the aggressor's shoulder, then break the aggressor's sword and say, "I spare your life!" The challenged can never revive the quarrel -- the challenger may.
Rule 6. If A gives B the lie, and B retorts by a blow (being the two greatest offenses), no reconciliation can take place till after two discharges each, or a severe hit; after which B may beg A's pardon humbly for the blow and then A may explain simply for the lie; because a blow is never allowable, and the offense of the lie, therefore, merges in it. (See preceding rules.)
N.B. Challenges for undivulged causes may be reconciled on the ground, after one shot. An explanation or the slightest hit should be sufficient in such cases, because no personal offense transpired.
Rule 7. But no apology can be received, in any case, after the parties have actually taken ground, without exchange of fires.
Rule 8. In the above case, no challenger is obliged to divulge his cause of challenge (if private) unless required by the challenged so to do before their meeting.
Rule 9. All imputations of cheating at play, races, etc., to be considered equivalent to a blow; but may be reconciled after one shot, on admitting their falsehood and begging pardon publicly.
Rule 10. Any insult to a lady under a gentleman's care or protection to be considered as, by one degree, a greater offense than if given to the gentleman personally, and to be regulated accordingly.
Rule 11. Offenses originating or accruing from the support of ladies' reputations, to be considered as less unjustifiable than any others of the same class, and as admitting of slighter apologies by the aggressor: this to be determined by the circumstances of the case, but always favorable to the lady.
Rule 12. In simple, unpremeditated recontres with the smallsword, or couteau de chasse, the rule is -- first draw, first sheath, unless blood is drawn; then both sheath, and proceed to investigation.
Rule 13. No dumb shooting or firing in the air is admissible in any case. The challenger ought not to have challenged without receiving offense; and the challenged ought, if he gave offense, to have made an apology before he came on the ground; therefore, children's play must be dishonorable on one side or the other, and is accordingly prohibited.
Rule 14. Seconds to be of equal rank in society with the principals they attend, inasmuch as a second may either choose or chance to become a principal, and equality is indispensible.
Rule 15. Challenges are never to be delivered at night, unless the party to be challenged intend leaving the place of offense before morning; for it is desirable to avoid all hot-headed proceedings.
Rule 16. The challenged has the right to choose his own weapon, unless the challenger gives his honor he is no swordsman; after which, however, he can decline any second species of weapon proposed by the challenged.
Rule 17. The challenged chooses his ground; the challenger chooses his distance; the seconds fix the time and terms of firing.
Rule 18. The seconds load in presence of each other, unless they give their mutual honors they have charged smooth and single, which should be held sufficient.
Rule 19. Firing may be regulated -- first by signal; secondly, by word of command; or thirdly, at pleasure -- as may be agreeable to the parties. In the latter case, the parties may fire at their reasonable leisure, but second presents and rests are strictly prohibited.
Rule 20. In all cases a miss-fire is equivalent to a shot, and a snap or non-cock is to be considered as a miss-fire.
Rule 21. Seconds are bound to attempt a reconciliation before the meeting takes place, or after sufficient firing or hits, as specified.
Rule 22. Any wound sufficient to agitate the nerves and necessarily make the hand shake, must end the business for that day.
Rule 23. If the cause of the meeting be of such a nature that no apology or explanation can or will be received, the challenged takes his ground, and calls on the challenger to proceed as he chooses; in such cases, firing at pleasure is the usual practice, but may be varied by agreement.
Rule 24. In slight cases, the second hands his principal but one pistol; but in gross cases, two, holding another case ready charged in reserve.
Rule 25. Where seconds disagree, and resolve to exchange shots themselves, it must be at the same time and at right angles with their principals, thus:
If with swords, side by side, with five paces interval.
N.B. All matters and doubts not herein mentioned will be explained and cleared up by application to the committee, who meet alternately at Clonmel and Galway, at the quarter sessions, for that purpose.
Perhaps instead of a posing round, we can simply have competitors issue forth "Duels" ... I Will refer everyone to the aforementioned example.
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For years it has been widely known that the posing was judged on the physique and not on the posing itself. The IFBB has decided to make a rule change because it was realized that it was pointless to judge another round based on the physique.
When every competitor is seen individually, how do you do comparisons? By memory? It always seemed like a pointless round to me.
By the way, does the NABBA score a posing round based on actual posing ability? What about the WABBA?
But they are overlooking the fact that the posing round was the place that inspired countless young people to become lifelong bodybuilding fans. The ones who will buy the mags, and products.
Also, It is the posing round that offers any chance of ever seeing bodybuiling back on TV, it is the posing round that will get ratings not the pre-judging. It is the posing round that can bring viewers back to bodybuilding. But if they chose to de-value it then bodybuilding will stay in highschool gymnasiums and cheap web casts.
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But they are overlooking the fact that the posing round was the place that inspired countless young people to become lifelong bodybuilding fans. The ones who will buy the mags, and products.
Also, It is the posing round that offers any chance of ever seeing bodybuilding back on TV, it is the posing round that will get ratings not the pre-judging. It is the posing round that can bring viewers back to bodybuilding. But if they chose to de-value it then bodybuilding will stay in highschool gymnasiums and cheap web casts.
Bull,
You are quite on point with this, (as myself and a few others have been), but trying to have an intelligent discourse with Bob Chick, is akin to banging one's head against a wall, and being surprised that the only thing that you have to show for it, is some lacerations, and a headache. :(
Bob Chick is incapable of:
1. Conceding a point under any circumstances whatsoever, regardless of how absurd he will come off in the process.
2. Admitting when he is wrong/misinformed/etc.
3. Cordially disagreeing with fellow Getbiggers. Instead he resorts to insults, accusations of being homosexual, stupid, etc.
4. Rationally constructing arguments.
I wish this wasn't the case, as being able to intelligently discuss bodybuilding issues with someone with his clout in the industry could be a productive endeavor, but he instead just opts to be a shill, and of course nothing gets changed for the better, as a result. :'(
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Bull,
You are quite on point with this, (as myself and a few others have been), but trying to have an intelligent discourse with Bob Chick, is akin to banging one's head against a wall, and being surprised that the only thing that you have to show for it, is some lacerations, and a headache. :(
Bob Chick is incapable of:
1. Conceding a point under any circumstances whatsoever, regardless of how absurd he will come off in the process.
2. Admitting when he is wrong/misinformed/etc.
3. Cordially disagreeing with fellow Getbiggers. Instead he resorts to insults, accusations of being homosexual, stupid, etc.
4. Rationally constructing arguments.
I wish this wasn't the case, as being able to intelligently discuss bodybuilding issues with someone with his clout in the industry could be a productive endeavor, but he instead just opts to be a shill, and of course nothing gets changed for the better, as a result. :'(
Other than your own perspective and opinion...what do you bring to the table? I've gotten 95% of my proposals passed through making things better for the sport and the athletes...
You have constantly acted like a complete douchbag to me from day 1, and now you want to start talking like you're the all wise, insightful, respectful poster? LOL...right. Your problem is, you're unwilling to listen to any counter argument or give it any creedence because it doesnt make sense to YOU, who has nothing to do with, or any ties to the industry...I speak from knowledge and fact as someone in the business...you speak as an anonymous toolbag on the internet....big difference.
You want to have an intellectual debate? I'm all for it....conduct yourself like someone who should be responded to in-kind.
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chick,
how does the new system give the guys out of the top 6 a fair shake?
prejudging will still be dominated by callouts for the top placings with a few extra callouts for the other guys but not against the top guys.
posing round isn't judged so a guy who may shine in his signature poses doesn't get any points for it (a great example was berry demey... wasn't the strongest in the compulsories but had so many signature poses where he looked awesome and it often brought him up in the ranks during the night show)
only the top 6 will be judged at all at night now.
how will a guy on the fringes get the chance to be compared to the top tier?
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Other than your own perspective and opinion...what do you bring to the table? I've gotten 95% of my proposals passed through making things better for the sport and the athletes....
That in itself means nothing. You can't infer that your ideas are necessarily better than another person's's simply because you are in a position to have the IFBB accept them. The only thing you can infer is that you are in a better position to have ideas accepted. After all, on what basis does the IFBB accept such proposals?
As for the proposals themselves, on what basis are they necessarily making things better? Are they short-term benefits? What direction will they take the sport? These are things that professionals, consultants, marketers, planners etc consider. You and the IFBB may very well have considered them, but judging by what has been posted, the fans would never know.
You want to have an intellectual debate? I'm all for it....conduct yourself like someone who should be responded to in-kind.
I'm up for it.
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how many of your proposals were voted on and approved by the athletes you claim to represent?
zero
Other than your own perspective and opinion...what do you bring to the table? I've gotten 95% of my proposals passed through making things better for the sport and the athletes...
You have constantly acted like a complete douchbag to me from day 1, and now you want to start talking like you're the all wise, insightful, respectful poster? LOL...right. Your problem is, you're unwilling to listen to any counter argument or give it any creedence because it doesnt make sense to YOU, who has nothing to do with, or any ties to the industry...I speak from knowledge and fact as someone in the business...you speak as an anonymous toolbag on the internet....big difference.
You want to have an intellectual debate? I'm all for it....conduct yourself like someone who should be responded to in-kind.
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chick,
how does the new system give the guys out of the top 6 a fair shake?
prejudging will still be dominated by callouts for the top placings with a few extra callouts for the other guys but not against the top guys.
posing round isn't judged so a guy who may shine in his signature poses doesn't get any points for it (a great example was berry demey... wasn't the strongest in the compulsories but had so many signature poses where he looked awesome and it often brought him up in the ranks during the night show)
only the top 6 will be judged at all at night now.
how will a guy on the fringes get the chance to be compared to the top tier?
The guys have NEVER gotten any points for it, and few examples can be made for anyone out of the money, moving up anywhere...
Personally, I'm not opposed to the judges calling out the top 10 for a quick run down...but thats up to the pro league to consider....problem is, a line has to be drawn somewhere (case can be made for the guy in 16th m oving up to 15th, etc..) and we could be there for 8 hours...
Bottom line is, it aint 4th grade t-ball where everyone gets a shot...it's PRO BB, and the best of the best will shine and place in the money spots...
Consider it elimination rounds...
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how many of your proposals were voted on and approved by the athletes you claim to represent?
zero
None...I dont rule by committee. I get a general consensus from the many pro's I'm in contact with throughout the year, and some ideas come from the athletes themselves....
I have yet to receive a single complaint from anyone I represent
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That in itself means nothing. You can't infer that your ideas are necessarily better than another person's's simply because you are in a position to have the IFBB accept them. The only thing you can infer is that you are in a better position to have ideas accepted. After all, on what basis does the IFBB accept such proposals?
My ideas (and those I submit on other athletes behalf) are the only ones that matter....everyone has an opinion, and idea, a proposal...and the IFBB accepts proposals on the basis of the representatives of the athletes that a part of the pro league....
As for the proposals themselves, on what basis are they necessarily making things better? Are they short-term benefits? What direction will they take the sport? These are things that professionals, consultants, marketers, planners etc consider. You and the IFBB may very well have considered them, but judging by what has been posted, the fans would never know.
I'm not sure where you're coming from...does the NFL conduct a poll of the fans to make changes? All the minutes from the meetings are posted for anyone to see...I dont hire a firm of marketers, planners to conduct a 2 year study on how elimination the posing round will affect the public opinion of anonymous posters on the internet....
As for what "basis" the proposals are making things better....read them, and you tell me. I'm sure you have already armed yourself with the knowledge of whats been presented, accepted, rejected, etc....right?
I'm up for it.
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The guys have NEVER gotten any points for it, and few examples can be made for anyone out of the money, moving up anywhere...
Personally, I'm not opposed to the judges calling out the top 10 for a quick run down...but thats up to the pro league to consider....problem is, a line has to be drawn somewhere (case can be made for the guy in 16th m oving up to 15th, etc..) and we could be there for 8 hours...
Bottom line is, it aint 4th grade t-ball where everyone gets a shot...it's PRO BB, and the best of the best will shine and place in the money spots...
Consider it elimination rounds...
I agree the posing round shouldn't be scored... only because I don't think they would do a good job if they actually tried to do it as a posing round.
However I think there will need to be some tweaking of the prejudging since only the top 6 get to be judged after the prejudging is over.
The one thing guys who are 7th thru 15th ALWAYS complain about is not being compared at all or not enough... often a guy is placed close to someone they don't even get a callout against.
Can we expect more callouts now that the posing round isn't to be judged?
Can we expect a longer, more detailed posedown round (which includes more comparisons and the actual posedown) since that will now be half the total scoring?
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I agree the posing round shouldn't be scored... only because I don't think they would do a good job if they actually tried to do it as a posing round.
However I think there will need to be some tweaking of the prejudging since only the top 6 get to be judged after the prejudging is over.
The one thing guys who are 7th thru 15th ALWAYS complain about is not being compared at all or not enough... often a guy is placed close to someone they don't even get a callout against.
Can we expect more callouts now that the posing round isn't to be judged?
Can we expect a longer, more detailed posedown round (which includes more comparisons and the actual posedown) since that will now be half the total scoring?
Yes, you can expect both of those things...as for comparisons......of course the lower placed guys complain about being compared, its the nature of the beast
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Yes, you can expect both of those things...as for comparisons......of course the lower placed guys complain about being compared, its the nature of the beast
nice to hear that adjustment will hopefully be made...
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None...I dont rule by committee. I get a general consensus from the many pro's I'm in contact with throughout the year, and some ideas come from the athletes themselves....
I have yet to receive a single complaint from anyone I represent
Is there a system for filing complaints, and what would happen to an athlete if he did complain? Would he be seen as disgruntled and thus be watched more closely?
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Is there a system for filing complaints, and what would happen to an athlete if he did complain? Would he be seen as disgruntled and thus be watched more closely?
I think the ifbb has been pretty good in regards to upset bbers really...
I mean samir bannout punched out a promoter and still got to compete again!
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Is there a system for filing complaints, and what would happen to an athlete if he did complain? Would he be seen as disgruntled and thus be watched more closely?
Watched by who? The system is simple...an athlte has an issue, concern, complaint, idea, etc...they come to me (or any of the reps) and say whats on their mind...we either answer their question, or take it to the brass as a general complaint/ concern without mention of specific names. It goes from there
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My ideas (and those I submit on other athletes behalf) are the only ones that matter....everyone has an opinion, and idea, a proposal...and the IFBB accepts proposals on the basis of the representatives of the athletes that a part of the pro league....
Great, now we are getting somewhere.
The ideas that you submit are of course the only ones that matter. However, is there an official channel within the IFBB that allows others to submit proposals etc. Do these proposals have to go through you (for example) and on what basis do they pass any first stage?
I'm not sure where you're coming from...does the NFL conduct a poll of the fans to make changes? All the minutes from the meetings are posted for anyone to see...I dont hire a firm of marketers, planners to conduct a 2 year study on how elimination the posing round will affect the public opinion of anonymous posters on the internet....
Basically, accountability. It's probably not necessary to have teams of marketers etc but it wouldn't hurt for an organisation the size of the IFBB, with all of the money that is involved, to have a game plan. Most business have such plans, whether they are 6 month, year-long etc. Not withstanding in-house political manoeuvrings (which are the bane of all organisations) and short-term gratifications, both financial and otherwise, what do the IFBB expect will come of its decisions in the long term? In other words, what vision do they have for the sport?
As for the basis of the proposals, well, they don't appear to be guided by any vision of where to take the sport but instead seem reactionary.
Again, I would like to reiterate that I am not attacking you or anyone. Being in a more politically influential position than everyone else on these boards, I am just hoping that you will consider the advantages of some of the more reasoned out posts rather than just rejectng them or considering them attacks.
Just trying to raise the bar here Chick, that's all.
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Watched by who? The system is simple...an athlte has an issue, concern, complaint, idea, etc...they come to me (or any of the reps) and say whats on their mind...we either answer their question, or take it to the brass as a general complaint/ concern without mention of specific names. It goes from there
well that seems OK but leaves room for misinterpretation, Wouldnt it be better if there was a written record of it, so it can be tracked and followed up on in a systematic way. Even for legal reasons that would make sense.
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Great, now we are getting somewhere.
The ideas that you submit are of course the only ones that matter. However, is there an official channel within the IFBB that allows others to submit proposals etc. Do these proposals have to go through you (for example) and on what basis do they pass any first stage?
Well, thats kind of the whole point to having reps, for the men, they go through me. For the women, they go through their respective reps...
Basically, accountability. It's probably not necessary to have teams of marketers etc but it wouldn't hurt for an organisation the size of the IFBB, with all of the money that is involved, to have a game plan. Most business have such plans, whether they are 6 month, year-long etc. Not withstanding in-house political manoeuvrings (which are the bane of all organisations) and short-term gratifications, both financial and otherwise, what do the IFBB expect will come of its decisions in the long term? In other words, what vision do they have for the sport?
Unfortunately, the IFBB has never really been run like a business with long term plans, etc. If the shows were put on BY the IFBB, then I would agree with you in principle....but they are not. They have always been content to have outside promoters put on their shows, etc...not my choice, but the IFBB has been around alot longer than I have.
As for the basis of the proposals, well, they don't appear to be guided by any vision of where to take the sport but instead seem reactionary.
Some are reactionary (as a result of past or present influence) and some are put forth as a means for making it better for the future athletes in terms of earning potential, health coverage, etc...
Again, I would like to reiterate that I am not attacking you or anyone. Being in a more politically influential position than everyone else on these boards, I am just hoping that you will consider the advantages of some of the more reasoned out posts rather than just rejectng them or considering them attacks.
I hear you...but they are few and far between, as I'm sure you have seen...tough to get any real input from outside people with virtually no knowledge of the inner workings of a company...
Just trying to raise the bar here Chick, that's all.
As am I
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Unfortunately, the IFBB has never really been run like a business with long term plans, etc. If the shows were put on BY the IFBB, then I would agree with you in principle....but they are not. They have always been content to have outside promoters put on their shows, etc...not my choice, but the IFBB has been around alot longer than I have.
I thought as much. That's a real shame.
Doesn't the IFBB have any control over how it wishes the sport to be presented? That would be the major benefit in having a more clear cut vision with which to direct the sport.
Thanks for answering my questions the way you did.
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how does the IFBB make money exactly..Where does their power come from?
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how does the IFBB make money exactly..Where does their power come from?
you wanna put on a pro show you have to give them money upfront to do it... one way they make money
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Its funny how your agenda is accomplished through a "general consensus" that exists only in your mind.
btw - tamali and colt prince agreeing with you doesn't constitute a consensus.
most pros don't care what you do, seeing that your in manions pants anyway.
None...I dont rule by committee. I get a general consensus from the many pro's I'm in contact with throughout the year, and some ideas come from the athletes themselves....
I have yet to receive a single complaint from anyone I represent
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Shame Ben Weider didn't do anything about Paul Chua.
Watched by who? The system is simple...an athlte has an issue, concern, complaint, idea, etc...they come to me (or any of the reps) and say whats on their mind...we either answer their question, or take it to the brass as a general complaint/ concern without mention of specific names. It goes from there
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Its funny how your agenda is accomplished through a "general consensus" that exists only in your mind.
btw - tamali and colt prince agreeing with you doesn't constitute a consensus.
most pros don't care what you do, seeing that your in manions pants anyway.
agreed
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"posing rounds" are best saved for muscleweb, muscletv etc... lets face it... not all of us move like Milos Sarcev ;)
THX
But anyone can move like that with just a bit of practice...
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Does this mean we won't get to see Kai Greene practically stripping on stage? >:( >:( :( :(