Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: Cleanest Natural on October 25, 2008, 05:05:56 PM
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(http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/2082/philheathbeforeafterfk1.jpg)
Fail.
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Fail.
@ WHAT ?
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yes they made thouse yellow frogs look at least 20lbs bigger
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@ WHAT ?
Can't see it, stud.
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That's not Lee Martinez.
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hormones appreciation thread ;D
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Maybe he wasn't working out with weights before.
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Ok, I can see it now. Sev, are you trying to say that Phil Heath is, in fact, "all drugs?" :o
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Hormones + unbelievable genetics = AMAZING !
;)
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Hormones + unbelievable genetics = AMAZING !
;)
how do you know he has good genetics?
he could have went straight to mega doses and slin and in three years time anybody who goes straight to mega doses hard trianing and lots of food will beocme a monster... maybe if you know for a fact phil was only using minima amounts then you can say he has amazing genetics BUT you dont know.. phil could have average genetics...
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I think he means great genetics for shape. I personally think his arms are too big and throw off his proportion. Also not very good muscle details, they look like blobs of muscle. Great bodybuilder but its not like he is comparable to Dorian Yates yet.
tbombz is correct he could of mega-dosed and took it to the extreme within 3 or 4 months
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how do you know he has good genetics?
he could have went straight to mega doses and slin and in three years time anybody who goes straight to mega doses hard trianing and lots of food will beocme a monster... maybe if you know for a fact phil was only using minima amounts then you can say he has amazing genetics BUT you dont know.. phil could have average genetics...
EXCELLENT POINT ..
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Wow what a difference.
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how do you know he has good genetics?
he could have went straight to mega doses and slin and in three years time anybody who goes straight to mega doses hard trianing and lots of food will beocme a monster... maybe if you know for a fact phil was only using minima amounts then you can say he has amazing genetics BUT you dont know.. phil could have average genetics...
ok, fair point.
It is obvious though that he has very good genetics for shape. Not perfect (e.g pecs) but look at his arms, just amazing.
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EXCELLENT POINT ..
thanks. always hear about how unbelievable phils response to hormones is. but how do people know ? it irks me. they compare the guys genetics to shawn ray. we know from people who knew shawn that that guy had great response and genetics and was a hard worker. nothing about phil tells us he is a hard worker or he has great genetics, all we knw is that in three years he went from bb player to FREAK... now what does that really say ? massive amounts of drugs thats what that says... this guys does have a incredible physique and yes it probably is better than sean rays ever was BUT dont be coparing this clowns genetic and work ethic to sean ray's... lets put the guy on 1 g a week and see what he looks like in 6 motnhs THEN we can assess his genetics..
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how do you know he has good genetics?
he could have went straight to mega doses and slin and in three years time anybody who goes straight to mega doses hard trianing and lots of food will beocme a monster... maybe if you know for a fact phil was only using minima amounts then you can say he has amazing genetics BUT you dont know.. phil could have average genetics...
I would not say that
I know guys who use a shitload of drugs, and they are not even close to winning a state show
A SHITLOAD !! :o
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thanks. always hear about how unbelievable phils response to hormones is. but how do people know ? it irks me. they compare the guys genetics to shawn ray. we know from people who knew shawn that that guy had great response and genetics and was a hard worker. nothing about phil tells us he is a hard worker or he has great genetics, all we knw is that in three years he went from bb player to FREAK... now what does that really say ? massive amounts of drugs thats what that says... this guys does have a incredible physique and yes it probably is better than sean rays ever was BUT dont be coparing this clowns genetic and work ethic to sean ray's... lets put the guy on 1 g a week and see what he looks like in 6 motnhs THEN we can assess his genetics..
fair call
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A SHITLOAD !! :o
Can you expand on that 'shitload'?
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i know I sound like a broken record BUT he is probably 60% BGG 40% gas
his nutrition is McDonalds
training- stares at the weights and Playstation 3
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Genetics & hormones = AMAZING
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Can you expand on that 'shitload'?
4 grams of roids a week + gh
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4 grams of roids a week + gh
:-\
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how do you know he has good genetics?
he could have went straight to mega doses and slin and in three years time anybody who goes straight to mega doses hard trianing and lots of food will beocme a monster... maybe if you know for a fact phil was only using minima amounts then you can say he has amazing genetics BUT you dont know.. phil could have average genetics...
ya, every person that did the same or more drugs as Phil looks as good or better than he does. ::) idiots
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PED
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how do you know he has good genetics?
what part of his people worked in the fields and shit for like 2000 years don't you understand
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how do you know he has good genetics?
he could have went straight to mega doses and slin and in three years time anybody who goes straight to mega doses hard trianing and lots of food will beocme a monster... maybe if you know for a fact phil was only using minima amounts then you can say he has amazing genetics BUT you dont know.. phil could have average genetics...
Wrong..if you dont have the genetics no amount of drugs will turn you into that..fuckin idiot ::)
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ya, every person that did the same or more drugs as Phil looks as good or better than he does. ::) idiots
Werd 8)
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Werd 8)
werd ?
(http://www.demotivateus.com/posters/english-do-you-speak-it-demotivational-poster.jpg)
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werd ?
(http://www.demotivateus.com/posters/english-do-you-speak-it-demotivational-poster.jpg)
Comming from you,a know nothing Child Porn Peddler , that is rich..go sweep the dust off the porch "egg head"
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Comming from you,a know nothing Child Porn Peddler , that is rich..go sweep the dust off the porch "egg head"
your creativity leaves me @ a loss for words ... :-X
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(http://images.quickblogcast.com/35238-32833/ThatsRacist.gif)
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Wrong..if you dont have the genetics no amount of drugs will turn you into that..fuckin idiot ::)
exactly
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Wrong..if you dont have the genetics no amount of drugs will turn you into that..fuckin idiot ::)
drugs = genetics
anybody can have ANY genetics..
one guy might be 230 on 1 g while another might be 210 on 1 g... however if the 210 wants 230? take 2 g , if that dont work take 3g , 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 + slin + gh + whatever the fuck + t3 + even more of all of them
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exactly
::)
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::)
Roll your eyes all you want , ever hear of this guy? he tried every drug combo known to man one of the most savy experts on the topic of anabolics , he never got past 185lbs
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drugs = genetics
anybody can have ANY genetics..
one guy might be 230 on 1 g while another might be 210 on 1 g... however if the 210 wants 230? take 2 g , if that dont work take 3g , 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 + slin + gh + whatever the fuck + t3 + even more of all of them
Sorry man, that's just not true. Upping the dose does not equal more gains. Genetics is a loose term people throw around, but the most important part of it is the genetic response to AAS. Some guys who are big naturally may not necessarily respond well to AAS while some guys who are small naturally may have incredible response, and vice versa.
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Sorry man, that's just not true. Upping the dose does not equal more gains. Genetics is a loose term people throw around, but the most important part of it is the genetic response to AAS. Some guys who are big naturally may not necessarily respond well to AAS while some guys who are small naturally may have incredible response, and vice versa.
yes, more mg does equal better results. thats how it works. and yes of course how well you respond matters. however everyone will respond to some degree. if you have a smal response youll need more, of course. but thats jus it, youill just need more. and besides that point, the majority of guys who think they dont respond well just A) have fake or underdosed gear B) think thei diet is better than it is C) think their training is more intense than it is D) think that the doses other guys are using are less than they actually are
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and besides that point, the majority of guys who think they dont respond well just A) have fake or underdosed gear B) think thei diet is better than it is C) think their training is more intense than it is D) think that the doses other guys are using are less than they actually are
bingo! tbombz is fast becoming an authority on bodybuilding, a guru of sorts.
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Roll your eyes all you want , ever hear of this guy? he tried every drug combo known to man one of the most savy experts on the topic of anabolics , he never got past 185lbs
Maybe he didn't like to eat.
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yes, more mg does equal better results. thats how it works. and yes of course how well you respond matters. however everyone will respond to some degree. if you have a smal response youll need more, of course. but thats jus it, youill just need more. and besides that point, the majority of guys who think they dont respond well just A) have fake or underdosed gear B) think thei diet is better than it is C) think their training is more intense than it is D) think that the doses other guys are using are less than they actually are
Oh for fucks sake ::)
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bingo! tbombz is fast becoming an authority on bodybuilding, a guru of sorts.
Sarcasm at its finest ;D
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I love it when Whores Moan.
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Roll your eyes all you want , ever hear of this guy? he tried every drug combo known to man one of the most savy experts on the topic of anabolics , he never got past 185lbs
yeah, he created a bad ass body with all those drugs, the only problem was he never turned the key (trained) or put in any gas (ate)... the dude was a little fucking fairy and ate like a damn bird.. my mother trains harder than he did and all she does is she walks 20 mins every morning... mike zumpano said duchaine ate 1800 calories a day... what a joke.. duchaine is everyhting wrong with bodybuilding drugs... guys who think like him should be shot..
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yeah, he created a bad ass body with all those drugs, the only problem was he never turned the key (trained) or put in any gas (ate)... the dude was a little fucking fairy and ate like a damn bird.. my mother trains harder than he did and all she does is she walks 20 mins every morning... mike zumpano said duchaine ate 1800 calories a day... what a joke.. duchaine is everyhting wrong with bodybuilding drugs... guys who think like him should be shot..
candizzle....excess food doesn't cause excess muscle growth
muscles grow because of stress not food
if food made people big and muscular americans would be big and muscular instead of fat and obese ;)
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hahah oh brother ;D
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candizzle....excess food doesn't cause excess muscle growth
muscles grow because of stress not food
if food made people big and muscular americans would be big and muscular instead of fat and obese ;)
So i could train like a mad man and eat 1000cals a day and still get bigger?
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So i could train like a mad man and eat 1000cals a day and still get bigger?
nope, you will lose muscle, your metabolism slows down and you go into starvation mode and get fatter
you know what I mean
you can gain muscle without eating crazy 6000 calories a day
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hahah oh brother ;D
???
what?
is this the point where you tell me "you have to be in a positive energy balance to gain muscle" ? ::)
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There is a study out there which showed the weightlifters consuming lower calories gained the same strength with less muscle growth. The weightlifters consuming a higher calorie diet experienced greater muscle growth with the same strength gain.
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i agree with candy here.
there is not one single report in the many studies i have read on steroids, that someone responded better (statistically significant) to gear than another subject. the genetic thing is another myth
if the gear is legit - all subjects will respond. the only difference is how much protein/calories the subject gets.
anyone who has seen phil's video can see he has the easiest workouts I've seen.
1 set of 10, rest 1 set of 10 rest etc etc - never breaking sweat, or even out of breath - but clearly it's enough to stimulate growth on the gear he's on.
bodybuilding is a science - its the correct amount of sets/reps/weight + correct amount of gear + correct nutrition + correct diet strategies + correct conditioning strategies = Mr o.
Some may get one or 2 of the above right and get a pretty good physique - those that get it all right are on the Olympia stage.
Also this is why there are guru's in the sport 8)
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???
what?
is this the point where you tell me "you have to be in a positive energy balance to gain muscle" ? ::)
well, if you want to get all technical AXA, you have to be in a positive nitrogen balance to gai muscle. there is no direct correlation between lipolysis and protein synthesis, so tecchnically you dont have to be i a p"psoitive energy balance" to gain muscle. :)
any other questions ? hahah
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There is a study out there which showed the weightlifters consuming lower calories experienced a heightened neuromuscular response to the training gaining more strength with less muscle growth. The weightlifters consuming a higher calorie diet experienced greater muscle growth with less strength gain.
can you direct me to this study - i would very much like to read it.
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There is a study out there which showed the weightlifters consuming lower calories experienced a heightened neuromuscular response to the training gaining more strength with less muscle growth. The weightlifters consuming a higher calorie diet experienced greater muscle growth with less strength gain.
can you post that study?
cuz it sounds retarded LOL
people get fat and think their fat is muscle
hence why I find the "bulking" and "cutting" simply retarded
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Sarcasm at its finest ;D
Nope, I wasn't being sarcastic. Show me one thing tbombz has posted which is glaringly incorrect.
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hahaha, this thread is truly priceless. ;D
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well, if you want to get all technical AXA, you have to be in a positive nitrogen balance to gai muscle. there is no direct correlation between lipolysis and protein synthesis, so tecchnically you dont have to be i a p"psoitive energy balance" to gain muscle. :)
any other questions ? hahah
positive nitrogen balance = anabolic state = state which you build muscle in
thanks for proving my point for not needing excess calories to gain muscle
that wasn't a question, that was a STATEMENT
"hahaha"? wtf is that there for? :-\
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12094125?ordinalpos=15&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
Effects of high-calorie supplements on body composition and muscular strength following resistance training.
Seventy-three healthy, male subjects randomly divided into 3 groups participated in a study to determine the effects of 2 high-calorie nutritional supplements on body composition, body segment circumferences, and muscular strength following a resistance-training (RT) program. METHODS: In addition to their normal diets group 1 (CHO/PRO; n=26) consumed a 8.4 Mj x day(-1) (2010 kcal) high calorie, high protein supplement containing 356 g carbohydrate and 106 g protein. Group 2 (CHO; n=25) consumed a carbohydrate supplement that was isocaloric with CHO/PRO. Group 3 (CTRL; n=22) received no supplement and served as a control. All subjects were placed on a 4-day x week(-1) RT program for 8 weeks. RESULTS: Dietary analysis revealed no significant differences in total energy consumption or nutrients at any time in the non-supplemented diets of the 3 groups. Significant (p= or <0.05) increases in body mass (BM) and fat-free mass (FFM) were observed in CHO/PRO and CHO compared to CTRL. Mean (+/- SD) increases in BM were 3.1+/-3.1 kg and 3.1+/-2.2 kg, respectively. Fat-free mass significantly (p= or <0.05) increased 2.9+/-3.4 kg in CHO/PRO and 3.4+/-2.5 kg in CHO. Muscular strength, as measured by a one-repetition maximum in the bench press, leg press, and lat-pull down increased significantly (p= or <0.05) in all groups. No significant differences in strength measures were observed among groups following training. CONCLUSIONS: Results indicate that high-calorie supplements are effective in increasing BM and FFM when combined with RT. However, once individual protein requirements are met, energy content of the diet has the largest effect on body composition.
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AXA i have no problem with you. however your like me, two years ago. i try to save you from yourself cuz you say alot of stuff that is like basic as fuck yet you act like its so new, and most of it is like 1/10th correct only, but basically incorrect in most situations.
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Sorry, guys I didn't recall that study 100% correctly. They achieved the SAME strength gains yet the higher calorie group gained MORE muscle.
Apology ;D
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AXA i have no problem with you. however your like me, two years ago. i try to save you from yourself cuz you say alot of stuff that is like basic as fuck yet you act like its so new, and most of it is like 1/10th correct only, but basically incorrect in most situations.
I have no problem with you either ???
I'm just discussing
I tell people the basic shit cuz they STILL get it wrong
for example: they eat over their calorie needs but all they eat is rice and fish
they think that will make them lose weight......FAIL :-X
feel free to correct me if I am incorrect, other wise I'd never learn :D
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Hormones + unbelievable genetics = AMAZING !
;)
Correct, genetics are very very important.
I'm sure if we all could look like heath and make six figures bodybuilding just by taking tons of roids we would. It's not that easy people, just because all of you haters juiced and all you got out of it was 20lbs of water, tons of zits and a chip on your shoulder.
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Sorry, guys I didn't recall that study 100% correctly. They achieved the SAME strength gains yet the higher calorie group gained MORE muscle.
Apology ;D
well no shit the other group didn't gain as much muscle :D
they gave the first group a diet with protein and high cals
the second NO protein, only carbs .......
wow...what a study ::)
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"During the off-season the diet should be slightly hyperenergetic (approximately 15% increase in energy intake) and during the pre-contest phase the diet should be hypoenergetic (approximately 15% decrease in energy intake)."
Lambert CP, Frank LL, Evans WJ. (2004). Macronutrient considerations for the sport of bodybuilding. Sports Med. 34(5):317-27.
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I have no problem with you either ???
I'm just discussing
I tell people the basic shit cuz they STILL get it wrong
for example: they eat over their calorie needs but all they eat is rice and fish
they think that will make them lose weight......FAIL :-X
feel free to correct me if I am incorrect, other wise I'd never learn :D
No offense, but at some point you will have to decide whether you know everything already or you can actually learn something from people with more experience. It makes no sense to bombard these people with platitudes and common gym knowledge. You will have to assume that they know such basic stuff, and some times know even better.
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Simple question:
Why would a body add muscle (metabolically taxing) under an already restricted intake of calories?
I would hypothesis as others have, that the response to stress would be largely through neuromuscular improvement.
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12094125?ordinalpos=15&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
Effects of high-calorie supplements on body composition and muscular strength following resistance training.
Seventy-three healthy, male subjects randomly divided into 3 groups participated in a study to determine the effects of 2 high-calorie nutritional supplements on body composition, body segment circumferences, and muscular strength following a resistance-training (RT) program. METHODS: In addition to their normal diets group 1 (CHO/PRO; n=26) consumed a 8.4 Mj x day(-1) (2010 kcal) high calorie, high protein supplement containing 356 g carbohydrate and 106 g protein. Group 2 (CHO; n=25) consumed a carbohydrate supplement that was isocaloric with CHO/PRO. Group 3 (CTRL; n=22) received no supplement and served as a control. All subjects were placed on a 4-day x week(-1) RT program for 8 weeks. RESULTS: Dietary analysis revealed no significant differences in total energy consumption or nutrients at any time in the non-supplemented diets of the 3 groups. Significant (p= or <0.05) increases in body mass (BM) and fat-free mass (FFM) were observed in CHO/PRO and CHO compared to CTRL. Mean (+/- SD) increases in BM were 3.1+/-3.1 kg and 3.1+/-2.2 kg, respectively. Fat-free mass significantly (p= or <0.05) increased 2.9+/-3.4 kg in CHO/PRO and 3.4+/-2.5 kg in CHO. Muscular strength, as measured by a one-repetition maximum in the bench press, leg press, and lat-pull down increased significantly (p= or <0.05) in all groups. No significant differences in strength measures were observed among groups following training. CONCLUSIONS: Results indicate that high-calorie supplements are effective in increasing BM and FFM when combined with RT. However, once individual protein requirements are met, energy content of the diet has the largest effect on body composition.
this is an interesting study, and unusual as i would have thought the higher protein group would have gained more fat free mass than the carb only group.
however it shows that calories only determine muscle gain, not protein :o
i will try to get a hold of the full study - this has peaked my interest.
thanks io856
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however it shows that calories only determine muscle gain, not protein :o
;D
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this is an interesting study, and unusual as i would have thought the higher protein group would have gained more fat free mass than the carb only group.
however it shows that calories only determine muscle gain, not protein :o
i will try to get a hold of the full study - this has peaked my interest.
thanks io856
you will have to take into account that the study was performed on natural individuals, not bodybuilders enhancing their metabolism with AAS and other hormones. this might altr the effect of protien on body composition and muscle gain.
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Yes no worries.
On that protein intake issue:
"Comparison of protein intakes on strength, body composition and hormonal changes were examined in 23 experienced collegiate strength/power athletes participating in a 12-week resistance training program. Subjects were stratified into three groups depending upon their daily consumption of protein; below recommended levels (BL; 1.0 – 1.4 g·kg-1·day-1; n = 8), recommended levels (RL; 1.6 – 1.8 g·kg-1·day-1; n = 7) and above recommended levels (AL; > 2.0 g·kg-1·day-1; n = 8). Subjects were assessed for strength [one-repetition maximum (1-RM) bench press and squat] and body composition. Resting blood samples were analyzed for total testosterone, cortisol, growth hormone, and insulin-like growth factor. No differences were seen in energy intake (3,171 ± 577 kcal) between the groups, and the energy intake for all groups were also below the recommended levels for strength/power athletes. No significant changes were seen in body mass, lean body mass or fat mass in any group. Significant improvements in 1-RM bench press and 1-RM squat were seen in all three groups, however no differences between the groups were observed. Subjects in AL experienced a 22% and 42% greater change in Δ 1-RM squat and Δ 1-RM bench press than subjects in RL, however these differences were not significant. No significant changes were seen in any of the resting hormonal concentrations. The results of this study do not provide support for protein intakes greater than recommended levels in collegiate strength/power athletes for body composition improvements, or alterations in resting hormonal concentrations."
Jay R Hoffman, Nicholas A Ratamess, Jie Kang, Michael J Falvo, and Avery D Faigenbaum Effect of Protein Intake on Strength, Body Composition and Endocrine Changes in Strength/Power Athletes. (2006) J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 3(2): 12–18.
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you will have to take into account that the study was performed on natural individuals, not bodybuilders enhancing their metabolism with AAS and other hormones. this might altr the effect of protien on body composition and muscle gain.
Hmmm...
epic backpaddling
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Simple question:
Why would a body add muscle (metabolically taxing) under an already restricted intake of calories?
I would hypothesis as others have, that the response to stress would be largely through neuromuscular improvement.
why would a body add muscle under any circumstance?
cuz you FORCE it
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why would a body add muscle under any circumstance?
cuz you FORCE it
Are you going to juice in the near future?
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Are you going to juice in the near future?
never in my life 8)
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never in my life 8)
Say hello to Lois Lane in Smallville for me then
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i know I sound like a broken record BUT he is probably 60% BGG 40% gas
his nutrition is McDonalds
training- stares at the weights and Playstation 3
You're thinking of Cormier....
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Say hello to Lois Lane in Smallville for me then
haha ;D
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why would a body add muscle under any circumstance?
cuz you FORCE it
you can train hard as fuck and stimulate all kinds of growth... but where does that muscle come from that you will grow? the food you eat
if you dont eat you wont grow
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Another point for AXA to consider.
In that study I posted in regards to caloric intake and muscle growth the authors wrote:
"...muscular strength gains are a consequence of central nervous system adaptations, muscular hypertrophy, or some combination of the two."
-Rozenek et. Al. 2002
So we can suggest the body's overall response to resistance training is a combination of the two separate responses. If our caloric intake is lower than our caloric expenditure. I would hypothesis the body would favour CNS adaptation as this is less metabolically taxing. The higher caloric intake could potentially involve a higher proportion of the muscular hypertrophy adaptation. The results seen in Rozenek et. Al. (2002) supports this hypothesis.
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;D
Not so fast stud. In a calorie surplus ok, but as calories drop protein requirement increases if you're going to keep what you've built.
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^^^
two fantastic posts in a row !!
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Not so fast stud. In a calorie surplus ok, but as calories drop protein requirement increases if you're going to keep what you've built.
I would agree with this, higher protein also induces a higher TEE so a higher overall caloric expenditure.
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The diet with higher & animal proteins will ALWAYS result in a leaner, more muscular body. And it will do so in a shorter amount of time than the other diet.
you will have to take into account that the study was performed on natural individuals, not bodybuilders enhancing their metabolism with AAS and other hormones. this might altr the effect of protien on body composition and muscle gain.
Anything else? ;D
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Another point for AXA to consider.
In that study I posted in regards to caloric intake and muscle growth the authors wrote:
"...muscular strength gains are a consequence of central nervous system adaptations, muscular hypertrophy, or some combination of the two."
-Rozenek et. Al. 2002
So we can suggest the body's overall response to resistance training is a combination of the two separate responses. If our caloric intake is lower than our caloric expenditure. I would hypothesis the body would favour CNS adaptation as this is less metabolically taxing. The higher caloric intake could potentially involve a higher proportion of the muscular hypertrophy adaptation. The results seen in Rozenek et. Al. (2002) supports this hypothesis.
how does this explain this little thing called powerlifting?
the guys are getting lots of food obviously
most are obese
not that jacked :-\
but very strong
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you can train hard as fuck and stimulate all kinds of growth... but where does that muscle come from that you will grow? the food you eat
if you dont eat you wont grow
who said don't eat? ???
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i am deeply disturbed by that study :o
my whole nutritional belief system has been thrown into chaos.
and worse than that - it means another adonis principle validated >:(
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Not so fast stud. In a calorie surplus ok, but as calories drop protein requirement increases if you're going to keep what you've built.
Just a glitch in the matrix. ;D
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how does this explain this little thing called powerlifting?
the guys are getting lots of food obviously
most are obese
not that jacked :-\
but very strong
What does this have to with anything discussed in this thread?
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and worse than that - it means another adonis principle validated >:(
;D
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Anything else? ;D
those two arent contradictory, stud
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those two arent contradictory, stud
So is there or is there not a difference depending on whether someone is natural or not?
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i am deeply disturbed by that study :o
my whole nutritional belief system has been thrown into chaos.
and worse than that - it means another adonis principle validated >:(
And it was yummy. :P
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theres a difference between a gaining diet and a cutting diet AXA
gainign diet you want t have the most net protein accrual as possible with little fat accural = high energy intake + high protein intake
cutting diet you want the most possible lipolysis least possible catabolism = low calorie, high % protein diet
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never in my life 8)
So your happy to live a life of "small-ness"...?
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That pretty much sums it up tbombz. I hope AXA can take something from today.
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So is there or is there not a difference depending on whether someone is natural or not?
ummmmmm my post he quopted was about a cuttting diet
two diets, both of eauql calories, one has higher % protein than the other, the higher % protein diet willl result in the leaner more muscular body... because when cuttting protein increases thermogensis and decreases catabolism..
in absence of glucose, fats are burned, in absence of dietary fat body fat is burned. why not eat NOTHING? you lose muscel. so you eat some protein to avoid muscle loss. thats a cutting diet. of course there are soem other things to take consideration that effects glycogen and t3 production and test production.. but getting into that now would take forever
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That pretty much sums it up tbombz. I hope AXA can take something from today.
:) he may have a chance at mrgetbig if he listened !
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ummmmmm my post he quopted was about a cuttting diet
two diets, both of eauql calories, one has higher % protein than the other, the higher % protein diet willl result in the leaner more muscular body... because when cuttting protein increases thermogensis and decreases catabolism..
in absence of glucose, fats are burned, in absence of dietary fat body fat is burned. why not eat NOTHING? you lose muscel. so you eat some protein to avoid muscle loss. thats a cutting diet. of course there are soem other things to take consideration that effects glycogen and t3 production and test production.. but getting into that now would take forever
off the hook for now, stud ;D
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ummmmmm my post he quopted was about a cuttting diet
two diets, both of eauql calories, one has higher % protein than the other, the higher % protein diet willl result in the leaner more muscular body... because when cuttting proteen increases thermogensis and decreases catabolism..
in absence of glucose, fats are burned, in absence of dietary fat body fat is burned. why not eat NOTHING? you lose muscel. so you eat some protein to avoid muscle loss. thats a cutting diet. of course there are soem other things to take consideration that effects glyciugen and t3 production and test produvvction.. but getting into that now would take forever
(http://www.crazydogtshirts.com/catalog/dyslexia%20t-shirt.jpg)
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(http://www.crazydogtshirts.com/catalog/dyslexia%20t-shirt.jpg)
LMFAO ;D
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all roid rage ;D
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how does this explain this little thing called powerlifting?
the guys are getting lots of food obviously
most are obese
not that jacked :-\
but very strong
clearly there is a cut off point for calories.
i'm not sure if bm in that study includes the ffm amount or is seperate. - i need the full study.
if its included then that study actually shows that 2000 cals extra a day produces minimum fat gain, but good muscle gain.
if its not included then the fat gain and muscle gain were around equal.
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ummmmmm my post he quopted was about a cuttting diet
two diets, both of eauql calories, one has higher % protein than the other, the higher % protein diet willl result in the leaner more muscular body... because when cuttting protein increases thermogensis and decreases catabolism..
in absence of glucose, fats are burned, in absence of dietary fat body fat is burned. why not eat NOTHING? you lose muscel. so you eat some protein to avoid muscle loss. thats a cutting diet. of course there are soem other things to take consideration that effects glycogen and t3 production and test production.. but getting into that now would take forever
I AGREE
Dietary protein and exercise have additive effects on body composition during weight loss in adult women.Layman DK, Evans E, Baum JI, Seyler J, Erickson DJ, Boileau RA.
Department of Food Science and Human Nutrition, University of Illnois, Urbana, 61801, USA. dlayman@uiuc.edu
This study examined the interaction of 2 diets (high protein, reduced carbohydrates vs. low protein, high carbohydrates) with exercise on body composition and blood lipids in women (n = 48, approximately 46 y old, BMI = 33 kg/m(2)) during weight loss. The study was a 4-mo weight loss trial using a 2 x 2 block design (Diet x Exercise). Diets were equal in total energy (7.1 MJ/d) and lipids ( approximately 30% energy intake) but differed in protein content and the ratio of carbohydrate:protein at 1.6 g/(kg . d) and <1.5 (PRO group) vs. 0.8 g/(kg . d) and >3.5 (CHO group), respectively. Exercise comparisons were lifestyle activity (control) vs. a supervised exercise program (EX: 5 d/wk walking and 2 d/wk resistance training). Subjects in the PRO and PRO + EX groups lost more total weight and fat mass and tended to lose less lean mass (P = 0.10) than the CHO and CHO + EX groups. Exercise increased loss of body fat and preserved lean mass. The combined effects of diet and exercise were additive for improving body composition. Serum lipid profiles improved in all groups, but changes varied among diet treatments. Subjects in the CHO groups had larger reductions in total cholesterol and LDL cholesterol, whereas subjects in the PRO groups had greater reductions in triacylglycerol and maintained higher concentrations of HDL cholesterol. This study demonstrated that a diet with higher protein and reduced carbohydrates combined with exercise additively improved body composition during weight loss, whereas the effects on blood lipids differed between diet treatments.
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Excellent find fatpanda
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I AGREE
Dietary protein and exercise have additive effects on body composition during weight loss in adult women.Layman DK, Evans E, Baum JI, Seyler J, Erickson DJ, Boileau RA.
Department of Food Science and Human Nutrition, University of Illnois, Urbana, 61801, USA. dlayman@uiuc.edu
This study examined the interaction of 2 diets (high protein, reduced carbohydrates vs. low protein, high carbohydrates) with exercise on body composition and blood lipids in women (n = 48, approximately 46 y old, BMI = 33 kg/m(2)) during weight loss. The study was a 4-mo weight loss trial using a 2 x 2 block design (Diet x Exercise). Diets were equal in total energy (7.1 MJ/d) and lipids ( approximately 30% energy intake) but differed in protein content and the ratio of carbohydrate:protein at 1.6 g/(kg . d) and <1.5 (PRO group) vs. 0.8 g/(kg . d) and >3.5 (CHO group), respectively. Exercise comparisons were lifestyle activity (control) vs. a supervised exercise program (EX: 5 d/wk walking and 2 d/wk resistance training). Subjects in the PRO and PRO + EX groups lost more total weight and fat mass and tended to lose less lean mass (P = 0.10) than the CHO and CHO + EX groups. Exercise increased loss of body fat and preserved lean mass. The combined effects of diet and exercise were additive for improving body composition. Serum lipid profiles improved in all groups, but changes varied among diet treatments. Subjects in the CHO groups had larger reductions in total cholesterol and LDL cholesterol, whereas subjects in the PRO groups had greater reductions in triacylglycerol and maintained higher concentrations of HDL cholesterol. This study demonstrated that a diet with higher protein and reduced carbohydrates combined with exercise additively improved body composition during weight loss, whereas the effects on blood lipids differed between diet treatments.
That's why there's the first principle. They didn't test on higher than 1.6g/kg.
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HERE'S ANOTHER THAT SHOWS HOW VALUABLE PROTEIN IS WHILE DIETING.
A randomized trial of a hypocaloric high-protein diet, with and without exercise, on weight loss, fitness, and markers of the Metabolic Syndrome in overweight and obese women.Meckling KA, Sherfey R.
Department of Human Health and Nutritional Sciences, University of Guelph, Guelph, ON N1G 2W1, Canada. kmecklin@uoguelph.ca
The purpose of this study was to examine the effects of 3:1 and 1:1 carbohydrate to protein ratios, hypocaloric diets with and without exercise, and risk factors associated with the Metabolic Syndrome in overweight and obese Canadian women. Groups were designated as control diet (CON), control diet with exercise (CONEx), high-protein (HP), or high-protein with exercise (HPEx). Free-living women from the Guelph community were studied in a university health and fitness facility. The participants were 44 of 60 overweight and obese women who had been randomized to the 4 weight-loss programs. Habitual diets of the subjects were energy restricted and were to contain either a 1:1 or 3:1 ratio of carbohydrate to protein energy. Subjects either exercised 3 times/week or maintained their normal level of activity for 12 weeks. The main outcome measures were weight loss, blood lipids, blood pressure, insulin, body composition, nitrogen balance, fitness, and resting energy expenditure. All groups lost weight over the 12 week period: -2.1 kg for the CON group, -4.0 kg in the CONEx group, -4.6 kg in the HP group, and -7.0 kg in the HPEx. All participants exhibited improved body composition, decreased blood pressure, and decreased waist and hip circumference. Actual diets consumed by the subjects contained ratios of carbohydrate to protein of 3.0:1, 2.7:1, 1.5:1, and 0.96:1 for the CON, CONEx, HP, and HPEx groups, respectively. Cardiovascular fitness improved in both exercise groups. There were no changes in resting energy expenditure. No adverse events were reported. Significant changes in blood lipids included decreased total cholesterol in the HP and CONEx groups, decreased low-density lipoprotein cholesterol in the HP group only, and decreased blood triglycerides in the HPEx group only. High-density lipoprotein cholesterol, fasting blood glucose, and fasting insulin levels were unaltered by diet or exercise. A high-protein diet was superior to a low-fat, high-carbohydrate diet either alone or when combined with an aerobic/resistance-training program in promoting weight loss and nitrogen balance, while similarly improving body composition and risk factors for the Metabolic Syndrome in overweight and obese Canadian women.
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That's why there's the first principle. They didn't test on higher than 1.6g/kg.
yes they aren't perfect studies but both show the benefit of higher protein amounts while in calorie deficit.
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all roid rage ;D
;D
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HERE'S ANOTHER THAT SHOWS HOW VALUABLE PROTEIN IS WHILE DIETING.
A randomized trial of a hypocaloric high-protein diet, with and without exercise, on weight loss, fitness, and markers of the Metabolic Syndrome in overweight and obese women.Meckling KA, Sherfey R.
Department of Human Health and Nutritional Sciences, University of Guelph, Guelph, ON N1G 2W1, Canada. kmecklin@uoguelph.ca
The purpose of this study was to examine the effects of 3:1 and 1:1 carbohydrate to protein ratios, hypocaloric diets with and without exercise, and risk factors associated with the Metabolic Syndrome in overweight and obese Canadian women. Groups were designated as control diet (CON), control diet with exercise (CONEx), high-protein (HP), or high-protein with exercise (HPEx). Free-living women from the Guelph community were studied in a university health and fitness facility. The participants were 44 of 60 overweight and obese women who had been randomized to the 4 weight-loss programs. Habitual diets of the subjects were energy restricted and were to contain either a 1:1 or 3:1 ratio of carbohydrate to protein energy. Subjects either exercised 3 times/week or maintained their normal level of activity for 12 weeks. The main outcome measures were weight loss, blood lipids, blood pressure, insulin, body composition, nitrogen balance, fitness, and resting energy expenditure. All groups lost weight over the 12 week period: -2.1 kg for the CON group, -4.0 kg in the CONEx group, -4.6 kg in the HP group, and -7.0 kg in the HPEx. All participants exhibited improved body composition, decreased blood pressure, and decreased waist and hip circumference. Actual diets consumed by the subjects contained ratios of carbohydrate to protein of 3.0:1, 2.7:1, 1.5:1, and 0.96:1 for the CON, CONEx, HP, and HPEx groups, respectively. Cardiovascular fitness improved in both exercise groups. There were no changes in resting energy expenditure. No adverse events were reported. Significant changes in blood lipids included decreased total cholesterol in the HP and CONEx groups, decreased low-density lipoprotein cholesterol in the HP group only, and decreased blood triglycerides in the HPEx group only. High-density lipoprotein cholesterol, fasting blood glucose, and fasting insulin levels were unaltered by diet or exercise. A high-protein diet was superior to a low-fat, high-carbohydrate diet either alone or when combined with an aerobic/resistance-training program in promoting weight loss and nitrogen balance, while similarly improving body composition and risk factors for the Metabolic Syndrome in overweight and obese Canadian women.
Meltdown.
Clearly not applicable to a superhuman Austrian oak.
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clearly there is a cut off point for calories.
i'm not sure if bm in that study includes the ffm amount or is seperate. - i need the full study.
if its included then that study actually shows that 2000 cals extra a day produces minimum fat gain, but good muscle gain.
if its not included then the fat gain and muscle gain were around equal.
2000 excess calories a day will add 16 pounds of fat on you in 1 month ......
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Say hello to Lois Lane in Smallville for me then
awesome show 8)
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Meltdown.
Clearly not applicable to a superhuman Austrian oak.
or a bamboo munching panda ;D
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yes they aren't perfect studies but both show the benefit of higher protein amounts while in calorie deficit.
Never denied that. The question is where is the point where further increase has no or only insignificant benefits.
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2000 excess calories a day will add 16 pounds of fat on you in 1 month ......
well it was an extra 2000 cals after workouts only - 4x a week
so if it was including the ffm number with the bm number, it once again shows the benefit of post w/o nutrition 8)
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or a bamboo munching panda ;D
As long as you're melting down, might as well join the team of non-masochists all the way!
;D
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Never denied that. The question is where is the point where further increase has no or only insignificant benefits.
well are we talking naturals or......... ;D
clearly kevin levrone, and others have built muscle during their pre contest diet's despite being in calorie deficit. so more protein does have positive effects - gear helps this.
a natural would be lucky to hold onto all his muscle - i think its more likely they would lose some no matter how much protein they ate.
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As long as you're melting down, might as well join the team of non-masochists all the way!
;D
i'm not melting, one adonis principle may have ben upheld/validated, however the other one is clearly not.
when in calorie reduction, its best to eat more protein :-*
panda principle no:1
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when in calorie reduction, its best to eat more protein :-*
panda principle no:1
Same as AD principle 1. The question is what is the upper limit where further increase makes no sense anymore.
tbombz claimed there is no upper limit, so 95% protein would theoretically be perfect (taking into account that basic needs must be met, such as essential fats).
So what is this upper limit in the panda principle?
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Same as AD principle 1. The question is what is the upper limit where further increase makes no sense anymore.
tbombz claimed there is no upper limit, so 95% protein would theoretically be perfect (taking into account that basic needs must be met, such as essential fats).
So what is this upper limit in the panda principle?
considering that before panda there is a "fat"
I wouldn't count too much on the Fatpanda principles ;D
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Same as AD principle 1. The question is what is the upper limit where further increase makes no sense anymore.
tbombz claimed there is no upper limit, so 95% protein would theoretically be perfect (taking into account that basic needs must be met, such as essential fats).
So what is this upper limit in the panda principle?
not much:
Anthropometric and calorimetric evidence for the protein sparing effects of a new protein supplemented low calorie preparation
LF Van Gaal, D Snyders, IH De Leeuw and JL Bekaert
A commercial protein sparing modified fast (PSMF) preparation has been evaluated for the protein sparing effects in 15 morbidly obese patients. During a 500 kcal preparation, given during a 6-week period, mean body weight and BMI decreased significantly. Total body fat decreased from 55.8 to 41.4 kg and lean body mass and arm muscle circumference (AMC) remained unchanged. Using indirect calorimetry and under the same degree of energy expenditure, carbohydrate metabolic consumption was significantly diminished (166 to 61 g/24 hr; p less than 0.001) but fat consumption was increased (116 to 155 g/24 hr; p less than 0.05) while the metabolic turn-over of protein was unchanged. This new presented PSMF preparation seems to present the typical properties of a protein sparing modified fast.
now bare in mind this involved the participants eating only 120g of protein a day - with no excercise ( further protein sparing effects). :)
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considering that before panda there is a "fat"
I wouldn't count too much on the Fatpanda principles ;D
i'm teaching here son - you should be learning ;)
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i'm teaching here son - you should be learning ;)
Ever heard the saying "You can't teach stupid arabs new tricks"....it applies to "MemberX".
Carry on. :)
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AXA i have no problem with you. however your like me, two years ago. i try to save you from yourself cuz you say alot of stuff that is like basic as fuck yet you act like its so new, and most of it is like 1/10th correct only, but basically incorrect in most situations.
You still do not know wtf you are talking about
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Nope, I wasn't being sarcastic. Show me one thing tbombz has posted which is glaringly incorrect.
Then you are clueless also.
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Then you are clueless also.
ohk
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not much:
Anthropometric and calorimetric evidence for the protein sparing effects of a new protein supplemented low calorie preparation
LF Van Gaal, D Snyders, IH De Leeuw and JL Bekaert
A commercial protein sparing modified fast (PSMF) preparation has been evaluated for the protein sparing effects in 15 morbidly obese patients. During a 500 kcal preparation, given during a 6-week period, mean body weight and BMI decreased significantly. Total body fat decreased from 55.8 to 41.4 kg and lean body mass and arm muscle circumference (AMC) remained unchanged. Using indirect calorimetry and under the same degree of energy expenditure, carbohydrate metabolic consumption was significantly diminished (166 to 61 g/24 hr; p less than 0.001) but fat consumption was increased (116 to 155 g/24 hr; p less than 0.05) while the metabolic turn-over of protein was unchanged. This new presented PSMF preparation seems to present the typical properties of a protein sparing modified fast.
now bare in mind this involved the participants eating only 120g of protein a day - with no excercise ( further protein sparing effects). :)
Looks like they ate carbs and fats. What exactly was the macro composition? Unclear from that part.
Further, it's a study on morbidly obese patients, applicablity level even lower.
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i agree with candy here.
there is not one single report in the many studies i have read on steroids, that someone responded better (statistically significant) to gear than another subject. the genetic thing is another myth
if the gear is legit - all subjects will respond. the only difference is how much protein/calories the subject gets.
anyone who has seen phil's video can see he has the easiest workouts I've seen.
1 set of 10, rest 1 set of 10 rest etc etc - never breaking sweat, or even out of breath - but clearly it's enough to stimulate growth on the gear he's on.
bodybuilding is a science - its the correct amount of sets/reps/weight + correct amount of gear + correct nutrition + correct diet strategies + correct conditioning strategies = Mr o.
Some may get one or 2 of the above right and get a pretty good physique - those that get it all right are on the Olympia stage.
Also this is why there are guru's in the sport 8)
Show me studies that proove Candi correct..e.g more gear = more mass and Im not talking scale weight,Im talking quality LBM in experienced bodybuilders who know how to diet and train correctly
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Ever heard the saying "You can't teach stupid arabs new tricks"....it applies to "MemberX".
Carry on. :)
yes theres a trend developing around
Looks like they ate carbs and fats. What exactly was the macro composition? Unclear from that part.
Further, it's a study on morbidly obese patients, applicablity level even lower.
they followed a protein sparring modified fast (psmf) - this means less than 1000cals / sometimes more depending on the amount of muscle mass on the patient- no carbs - minimum efa's (maybe 5g) - the rest protein (fibrous veg is also allowed).
it was designed by doctors to lead to maximum fat loss - minimum/no muscle loss.
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Show me studies that proove Candi correct..e.g more gear = more mass and Im not talking scale weight,Im talking quality LBM.
Dose-Dependent Effects of Testosterone on Regional Adipose Tissue Distribution in Healthy Young Men
Linda J. Woodhouse, Nidhi Gupta, Meenakshi Bhasin, Atam B. Singh, Robert Ross, Jeffrey Phillips and Shalender Bhasin
Division of Endocrinology, Metabolism, and Molecular Medicine (L.J.W., N.G., M.B., A.B.S., S.B.), Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, Los Angeles, California 90059; School of Rehabilitation Sciences (L.J.W.), McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario Canada L8S 1C7; School of Physical and Health Education (R.R.), Queen’s University, Kingston, Ontario, Canada, K7L 3N6; and Harbor-University of California, Los Angeles Medical Center (J.P.), Torrance, California 90502
Address all correspondence and requests for reprints to: Linda Woodhouse, McMaster University, School of Rehabilitation Science, 1400 Main Street West, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada L8S 1C7. E-mail: woodhou@mcmaster.ca.
Testosterone supplementation reduces total body adipose tissue (AT), but we do not know whether the effects are uniformly distributed throughout the body or are region specific, or whether they are dose related.
We determined the effects of graded doses of testosterone on regional AT distribution in 54 healthy men (18–35 yr) in a 20-wk, randomized, double-blind study of combined treatment with GnRH agonist plus one of five doses (25, 50, 125, 300, or 600 mg/wk) of testosterone enanthate (TE). Total body, appendicular, and trunk AT and lean body mass were measured by dual-energy x-ray absorptiometry, and sc, intermuscular, and intraabdominal AT of the thigh and abdomen were measured by magnetic resonance imaging. Treatment regimens resulted in serum nadir testosterone concentrations ranging from subphysiological to supraphysiological levels. Dose-dependent changes in AT mass were negatively correlated with TE dose at all sites and were equally distributed between the trunk and appendices. The lowest dose was associated with gains in sc, intermuscular, and intraabdominal AT, with the greatest percent increase occurring in the sc stores. At the three highest TE doses, thigh intermuscular AT volume was significantly reduced, with a greater percent loss in intermuscular than sc depots, whereas intraabdominal AT stores remained unchanged. In conclusion, changes in testosterone concentrations in young men are associated with dose-dependent and region-specific changes in AT and lean body mass in the appendices and trunk. Lowering testosterone concentrations below baseline increases sc and deep AT stores in the appendices and abdomen, with a greater percent increase in sc depots. Conversely, elevating testosterone concentrations above baseline induces a greater loss of AT from the smaller, deeper intermuscular stores of the thigh
download the full study ( its free) and read it - its highly enlightening. muscle mass and fat mass is directly corelated to dose.
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TA's principals were originally all about dieting. He has ammended and changed them over time, and I applaud him for doing so, but I think they are still meant to be applied to fat loss only.
Will, come on. More steroids means more lbm gain. The difference between 4g a week and 5g a week will probably be less than the difference between 0g and 1000g but we don't need double blind studies to show us that AAS promotes muscle mass.
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it was a joke, calm down, people can't have a little fun on here? ;D
but you were mean, and called me fat :'(
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Maybe he calls it panda.
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:) ;D
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they followed a protein sparring modified fast (psmf) - this means less than 1000cals / sometimes more depending on the amount of muscle mass on the patient- no carbs - minimum efa's (maybe 5g) - the rest protein (fibrous veg is also allowed).
it was designed by doctors to lead to maximum fat loss - minimum/no muscle loss.
Are there studies on a PSMF for non-obese lifters going from let's say 15% to a lower body weight? Have you ever tried or know of people who have? I don't think in this study, the morbidly obese people were people coming from a weight lifting background and I also don't think they have been doing any kind of exercise during their fast, right?
What I have tried in the past is a cutting diet with very high protein, moderate fats, and practically no carbs. The results on body composition were horrible. I was literally losing strength and muscle mass while keeping fat mass. Could be a genetic thing though.
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TA's principals were originally all about dieting. He has ammended and changed them over time, and I applaud him for doing so, but I think they are still meant to be applied to fat loss only.
I agree about the dieting part. I always said that I don't know yet how the principles would work for a bulk. That's my next project.
I also don't know whether he changed them over time or if he just clarified details later on. When I started my first threads, he chimed in and basically confirmed everything I said about my current diet. The only thing that was changed from my original rules was that I started with 0.5g / lb body mass for protein, since I knew that below that value is too low, at least for me. It was then suggested by TA and other members, that we should use LBM instead of body mass and use 1g / lb of LBM. I still think that a lower value is also sufficient for me, but since I am above that in my current diet, and I have never tried values in between, I went with what TA suggested for the first principle.
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but you were mean, and called me fat :'(
What would TA say here? ;D
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Dose-Dependent Effects of Testosterone on Regional Adipose Tissue Distribution in Healthy Young Men
Linda J. Woodhouse, Nidhi Gupta, Meenakshi Bhasin, Atam B. Singh, Robert Ross, Jeffrey Phillips and Shalender Bhasin
Division of Endocrinology, Metabolism, and Molecular Medicine (L.J.W., N.G., M.B., A.B.S., S.B.), Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, Los Angeles, California 90059; School of Rehabilitation Sciences (L.J.W.), McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario Canada L8S 1C7; School of Physical and Health Education (R.R.), Queen’s University, Kingston, Ontario, Canada, K7L 3N6; and Harbor-University of California, Los Angeles Medical Center (J.P.), Torrance, California 90502
Address all correspondence and requests for reprints to: Linda Woodhouse, McMaster University, School of Rehabilitation Science, 1400 Main Street West, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada L8S 1C7. E-mail: woodhou@mcmaster.ca.
Testosterone supplementation reduces total body adipose tissue (AT), but we do not know whether the effects are uniformly distributed throughout the body or are region specific, or whether they are dose related.
We determined the effects of graded doses of testosterone on regional AT distribution in 54 healthy men (18–35 yr) in a 20-wk, randomized, double-blind study of combined treatment with GnRH agonist plus one of five doses (25, 50, 125, 300, or 600 mg/wk) of testosterone enanthate (TE). Total body, appendicular, and trunk AT and lean body mass were measured by dual-energy x-ray absorptiometry, and sc, intermuscular, and intraabdominal AT of the thigh and abdomen were measured by magnetic resonance imaging. Treatment regimens resulted in serum nadir testosterone concentrations ranging from subphysiological to supraphysiological levels. Dose-dependent changes in AT mass were negatively correlated with TE dose at all sites and were equally distributed between the trunk and appendices. The lowest dose was associated with gains in sc, intermuscular, and intraabdominal AT, with the greatest percent increase occurring in the sc stores. At the three highest TE doses, thigh intermuscular AT volume was significantly reduced, with a greater percent loss in intermuscular than sc depots, whereas intraabdominal AT stores remained unchanged. In conclusion, changes in testosterone concentrations in young men are associated with dose-dependent and region-specific changes in AT and lean body mass in the appendices and trunk. Lowering testosterone concentrations below baseline increases sc and deep AT stores in the appendices and abdomen, with a greater percent increase in sc depots. Conversely, elevating testosterone concentrations above baseline induces a greater loss of AT from the smaller, deeper intermuscular stores of the thigh
download the full study ( its free) and read it - its highly enlightening. muscle mass and fat mass is directly corelated to dose.
Where does it say anything over 1 gram of test a week? Candi is saying to "mega dose"
That study has nothing to do with what he said about ramping up gear use untill you start gaining lbm ?
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yeah, he created a bad ass body with all those drugs, the only problem was he never turned the key (trained) or put in any gas (ate)... the dude was a little fucking fairy and ate like a damn bird.. my mother trains harder than he did and all she does is she walks 20 mins every morning... mike zumpano said duchaine ate 1800 calories a day... what a joke.. duchaine is everyhting wrong with bodybuilding drugs... guys who think like him should be shot..
well pointedout
I also think that dan duchain is overrated and my take on him was that he was heavy into rec drugs and experimented a loton others ..which is not good ..
And his appeal to the masses : I put in in the same category w/ Borressen due to the fact that he had the gift of gab ...he knew how to package and sell ideas .
But both him and Borressen were troubled individuals who fucked themselves up royally.
I still stand by the fact that the 3-4000 posts GH15 made on getbig are THE MOST PRECIOUS THING GIVEN TO THE BB COMMUNITY BY THE BB ESTABLISHMENT IN THE HYSTORY OF THIS DISCIPLINE.
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well pointedout
I also think that dan duchain is overrated and my take on him was that he was heavy into rec drugs and experimented a loton others ..which is not good ..
And his appeal to the masses : I put in in the same category w/ Borressen due to the fact that he had the gift of gab ...he knew how to package and sell ideas .
But both him and Borressen were troubled individuals who fucked themselves up royally.
I still stand by the fact that the 3-4000 posts GH15 made on getbig are THE MOST PRECIOUS THING GIVEN TO THE BB COMMUNITY BY THE BB ESTABLISHMENT IN THE HYSTORY OF THIS DISCIPLINE.
Candi knows nothing of Dan,if he did he would know DD Lived the BB lifestyle to the extreme for a number of years,he competed have you? has candi? no.
So Candi saying he ate like a bird and trained like a fairy is more rubbish being put forth by a know nothing shit stain , much like your self ;)
Whilst we are touching on "training like a fairy" Candy ive seen some of the junk you have posted about how you are training,if you are 210pds wanting to get to 230pds increasing your gear from 1g to 2g a week wont help with that shit training routine you are using.
You need to get your basics right first , but what can you expect from someone who jumps into gear before they know how to train , right ?
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Candi knows nothing of Dan,if he did he would know DD Lived the BB lifestyle to the extreme for a number of years,he competed have you? has candi? no.
So Candi saying he ate like a bird and trained like a fairy is more rubbish being put forth by a know nothing shit stain , much like your self ;)
Whilst we are touching on "training like a fairy" Candy ive seen some of the junk you have posted about how you are training,if you are 210pds wanting to get to 230pds increasing your gear from 1g to 2g a week wont help with that shit training routine you are using.
You need to get your basics right first , but what can you expect from someone who jumps into gear before they know how to train , right ?
::)
I did my first show in 94...lol...you do the math hotshot ...
stop talking ..youare embarrassing yourself.
duchain was a guy heavily into rec drugs ...if that'syur idea of whotolisten to ....
he fucking advocated DNP for crying out loud ..
also there are plenty of not so nice stories about Dan you don't know ;)
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::)
I did my first show in 94...lol...you do the math hotshot ...
stop talking ..youare embarrassing yourself.
duchain was a guy heavily into rec drugs ...if that'syur idea of whotolisten to ....
he fucking advocated DNP for crying out loud ..
also there are plenty of not so nice stories about Dan you don't know ;)
The math? well the math says you still look average even with gear use..
I think you need to stop talking Sev , you really do not know what you are talking about.
Whats Dan being into recs , using DNP and you thinking you know someone because you "heard it" got to do with Dan living the bodybuilding lifestyle and training hard?
Absolutly nothing..
Candy said he ate like a bird and trained like a fairy, I pointed out this was not true when Dan first got into the lifestyle and AAS (before the other stuff)he was dedicated as much as anyone but he soon realised that no ammount of steroids will change your genetic fate..
So before you start another idiotic thread run along and learn a bit more and try some real gear ;)
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The math? well the math says you still look average even with gear use..
I think you need to stop talking Sev , you really do not know what you are talking about.
Whats Dan being into recs , using DNP and you thinking you know someone because you "heard it" got to do with Dan living the bodybuilding lifestyle and training hard?
Absolutly nothing..
Candy said he ate like a bird and trained like a fairy, I pointed out this was not true when Dan first got into the lifestyle and AAS (before the other stuff)he was dedicated as much as anyone but he soon realised that no ammount of steroids will change your genetic fate..
So before you start another idiotic thread run along and learn a bit more and try some real gear ;)
Epic trying to act like you know when in factYOU DON'T !
Everybody considers you a joke around here ...you're only confirming it..
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Epic trying to act like you know when in factYOU DON'T !
Everybody considers you a joke around here ...you're only confirming it..
Hahaha monster showing you care what anyone thinks about you on an internet board..
Look homo so far Iv owned you with every post you never have a comeback and if you do I shoot it down..
And I know 110 % more than you ;)
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Hahaha monster showing you care what anyone thinks about you on an internet board..
Look homo so far Iv owned you with every post you never have a comeback and if you do I shoot it down..
And I know 110 % more than you ;)
I noticed you can talk big ...now post a pic or a video to se all that fine knowledge @ work
hhahahahahahahaa ..that's right ;)
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how do you know he has good genetics?
he could have went straight to mega doses and slin and in three years time anybody who goes straight to mega doses hard trianing and lots of food will beocme a monster... maybe if you know for a fact phil was only using minima amounts then you can say he has amazing genetics BUT you dont know.. phil could have average genetics...
He looks ripped in that picture of him playing ball and his calves look big too!
Phil can still take to the house! How many pros you know that can dunk a basketball?
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Where does it say anything over 1 gram of test a week? Candi is saying to "mega dose"
That study has nothing to do with what he said about ramping up gear use untill you start gaining lbm ?
::)
if you don't gain muscle on 600mg of test a week, you are not human
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Are there studies on a PSMF for non-obese lifters going from let's say 15% to a lower body weight? Have you ever tried or know of people who have? I don't think in this study, the morbidly obese people were people coming from a weight lifting background and I also don't think they have been doing any kind of exercise during their fast, right?
What I have tried in the past is a cutting diet with very high protein, moderate fats, and practically no carbs. The results on body composition were horrible. I was literally losing strength and muscle mass while keeping fat mass. Could be a genetic thing though.
i have posted 3 studies now that show the value of more protein while cutting - are you still questioning this? the value of more protein while dieting is without question. i could find lots of better studies ( i have read lots of better studies) but these are the first ones i came across last night.
the psmf shows that it is possible to maintain ALL lean mass with the low intake of 120g protein alone - nothing more. obviously the leaner you get the more muscle wil be at risk, however it stands to reason that a slight increase in protein level would be enough to sustain any lean mass - regardless of bodyfat level.
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fatpanda i already described a cutting diet and why protie is cutting diet food.. some guys wll never learn or they will never accept whats accurate...they would rather believe what they want to believe than actually know the truth
me however i hate to be wrong, i want to be right 100% of the time, so anytime i see some thing i think that is proved wrong i will immidietly transfer my beliefs to what is proven to be correct..i see no point in having any incorrect beliefes... why be wrong when you can be right ? 8)
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fatpanda i already described a cutting diet and why protie is cutting diet food.. some guys wll never learn or they will never accept whats accurate...they would rather believe what they want to believe than actually know the truth
me however i hate to be wrong, i want to be right 100% of the time, so anytime i see some thing i think that is proved wrong i will immidietly transfer my beliefs to what is proven to be correct..i see no point in having any incorrect beliefes... why be wrong when you can be right ? 8)
thats why you are looking bigger and better every month 8)
when you stop learning, you stop growing 8)
wave and will are losing objectivity.
they believe they are right despite what science tells them. ::)
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thats why you are looking bigger and better every month 8)
when you stop learning, you stop growing 8)
wave and will are losing objectivity.
they believe they are right despite what science tells them. ::)
Nopes, I just don't care about science (of which its applicability or validity I can't check anyway), I only care about my experience. As I said, I wouldn't hit myself over the head with a hammer twice just because an egghead tells me it shouldn't have hurt the first time around. :D
I'm always willing to change my methods, if my experience shows me that something else works better. This is exactly the way I got to my current method over the past 10 years.
And yes, you have presented studies which show that increased protein intake during a diet improves body composition, and I never denied that. The only question is if there is a certain level at which further increase makes no sense anymore or even has negative effect on body composition. The study with the obese people indicates that such an upper level does not exist. Since my experience indicates otherwise, I can only assume that what works for the avarage, morbidely obese, physically inactive person just doesn't work for me.
So if you are so sure that a protein only diet is best for cutting, why don't you try it on your next cut? I would be interested in the results and your progress pics. :)
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Nopes, I just don't care about science (of which its applicability or validity I can't check anyway), I only care about my experience. As I said, I wouldn't hit myself over the head with a hammer twice just because an egghead tells me it shouldn't have hurt the first time around. :D
I'm always willing to change my methods, if my experience shows me that something else works better. This is exactly the way I got to my current method over the past 10 years.
And yes, you have presented studies which show that increased protein intake during a diet improves body composition, and I never denied that. The only question is if there is a certain level at which further increase makes no sense anymore or even has negative effect on body composition. The study with the obese people indicates that such an upper level does not exist. Since my experience indicates otherwise, I can only assume that what works for the avarage, morbidely obese, physically inactive person just doesn't work for me.
So if you are so sure that a protein only diet is best for cutting, why don't you try it on your next cut? I would be interested in the results and your progress pics. :)
ok guy wy dont you go look at the pictures of me as a fatbody then me as a lean body
or check ou the bodybuilders you see on olympia stage in the 60's 70's and 80's... protein only + veggies + stagered carb ups is how most guys diet...its well known.. it works.. its perfect for fat loss... this shit aint new bro.. its old.. been aroun forever.. everybody knows about it.. why you can understand the basic fact that itw roks and how it wotrks... i dont know cuz you seem to be intelligent... but like i said earilier.. some guys just want to believe what they believe.. which is obvious about you because of the long ass debate usmokepole and willbrink had with you about supplements in the nutritio board where you were ownded a million times hardcore as fuck yet yu persisted with you bullcrapp
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The study with the obese people indicates that such an upper level does not exist. Since my experience indicates otherwise, I can only assume that what works for the avarage, morbidely obese, physically inactive person just doesn't work for me.
So if you are so sure that a protein only diet is best for cutting, why don't you try it on your next cut? I would be interested in the results and your progress pics. :)
perhaps you wern't taking in enough protein when you tried it?
i have tried it in the past - i lasted 7 days, i got very weak, and was constantly craving food. however the fat loss was impressive.
a protein only diet is the best for maximum fat loss minimum muscle gain - in morbidly obese people yes, however if it works better in them than any other diet type for this reason, it stands to reason it would work for the aveage gym rat beter than any other too.
however it is not easy, nor pleasurable.
however as candy points out bodybuilders have been doing it like this since time began 8)
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ok guy wy dont you go look at the pictures of me as a fatbody then me as a lean body
or check ou the bodybuilders you see on olympia stage in the 60's 70's and 80's... protein only + veggies + stagered carb ups is how most guys diet...its well known.. it works.. its perfect for fat loss... this shit aint new bro.. its old.. been aroun forever.. everybody knows about it.. why you can understand the basic fact that itw roks and how it wotrks... i dont know cuz you seem to be intelligent... but like i said earilier.. some guys just want to believe what they believe.. which is obvious about you because of the long ass debate usmokepole and willbrink had with you about supplements in the nutritio board where you were ownded a million times hardcore as fuck yet yu persisted with you bullcrapp
tbombz, seriously, the redundancy of the english language fortunally is pretty high, but it takes an expert to decipher your posts. :D
Not one of my methods is based on what I believe. It's all based on my experience. What's so hard to understand about that? I have already tried everything you suggested. I was only critizised on my lack of knowledge in the field of nutritional science and the methods used there. I have never claimed that I have knowledge in that field. You both obviously have more knowledge there. And if what you think science suggests, works better for both of you, more power to you. In this case, I wouldn't do it otherwise too.
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perhaps you wern't taking in enough protein when you tried it?
i have tried it in the past - i lasted 7 days, i got very weak, and was constantly craving food. however the fat loss was impressive.
a protein only diet is the best for maximum fat loss minimum muscle gain - in morbidly obese people yes, however if it works better in them than any other diet type for this reason, it stands to reason it would work for the aveage gym rat beter than any other too.
however it is not easy, nor pleasurable.
however as candy points out bodybuilders have been doing it like this since time began 8)
Too many "howevers" for my taste. ;D
So the only reason you won't be using the protein only diet is because of your lack of willpower? :D
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i doubt youve tried it
try this
meal one = 8 ounce lean meat + veggies + fish oil
meal two repeats
meal three repeat
meal four repeat
meal five repeat
meal 6 repeat
do this three days in a row, then add in 50g carbs to each meal for one day, then repeat cycle.
do that for a few weeks THEN come back and we will talk.
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Too many "howevers" for my taste. ;D
So the only reason you won't be using the protein only diet is because of your lack of willpower? :D
exactly, i didn't become fatpanda by having a strong will power, however ;D i have been known on occasion to get a steadfast determination now and again, and do things the correct way.
its not impossible to eat lean protein and veg, many people eat this way evryday.
with a little imagination and creativity in your preperations i'm sure most would be happy eating this way.
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i doubt youve tried it
try this
meal one = 8 ounce lean meat + veggies + fish oil
meal two repeats
meal three repeat
meal four repeat
meal five repeat
meal 6 repeat
do this three days in a row, then add in 50g carbs to each meal for one day, then repeat cycle.
do that for a few weeks THEN come back and we will talk.
Yes of course, I didn't do exactly that, but I have done a diet with high protein (mostly animal protein) and low fat, with occasional carb ups.
Have you ever done that and gone down to let's say below 8% bodyfat? Have you ever even been below 8%?
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Yes of course, I didn't do exactly that, but I have done a diet with high protein (mostly animal protein) and low fat, with occasional carb ups.
Have you ever done that and gone down to let's say below 8% bodyfat? Have you ever even been below 8%?
yeah i dieted that way, everytime i ever diet. i dont do long diets however. just long enough to trim off excess fat and look somewhat decent again., im endo/meso naturally. i have alot of muscle to still put on my frame so i dont take a long diet to try to get to 8%, fuzzy abs is good enough for me, then i start gaining again.. no reason for me to be ripped up..
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yeah i dieted that way, everytime i ever diet. i dont do long diets however. just long enough to trim off excess fat and look somewhat decent again., im endo/meso naturally. i have alot of muscle to still put on my frame so i dont take a long diet to try to get to 8%, fuzzy abs is good enough for me, then i start gaining again.. no reason for me to be ripped up..
Well as I said, if it works for you, more power to you. However, if you have always dieted that way, you don't really know if a different approach wouldn't work just as good if not even better. You can rely on what science suggests (at this time) of course, but I choose to rely on my experience instead. No biggie.
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exactly, i didn't become fatpanda by having a strong will power, however ;D i have been known on occasion to get a steadfast determination now and again, and do things the correct way.
its not impossible to eat lean protein and veg, many people eat this way evryday.
with a little imagination and creativity in your preperations i'm sure most would be happy eating this way.
Your lack of willpower sickens me. >:(
I can only advise you to put up a progress thread, it's great self-motivation. 8)
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Well as I said, if it works for you, more power to you. However, if you have always dieted that way, you don't really know if a different approach wouldn't work just as good if not even better. You can rely on what science suggests (at this time) of course, but I choose to rely on my experience instead. No biggie.
ok well i did try the anabolic diet which is hg fat weekdays and carb up weekends, but i was using it for mass when i was still a natural. that diet worked prtty damn good. i also tried the bgody opus diet, and used that for cutting, but that diet wasnt so great, fat loss was really slow.
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ok well i did try the anabolic diet which is hg fat weekdays and carb up weekends, but i was using it for mass when i was still a natural. that diet worked prtty damn good. i also tried the bgody opus diet, and used that for cutting, but that diet wasnt so great, fat loss was really slow.
Being natural is probably a factor also, you know more about that than me, since you have done both. I never claimed to have any knowledge about the applicability of the principles for non-naturals. I think TA believes that it doesn't matter, but from my experience, I have no idea.
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Sevastese had to take drugs to look like a natural
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Sevastese had to take drugs to look like a natural
You took drugs to look like you go to a gym every couple of weeks.
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You took drugs to look like you go to a gym every couple of weeks.
Cocaine isn't the same as steroids. ::)
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how do you know he has good genetics?
he could have went straight to mega doses and slin and in three years time anybody who goes straight to mega doses hard trianing and lots of food will beocme a monster... maybe if you know for a fact phil was only using minima amounts then you can say he has amazing genetics BUT you dont know.. phil could have average genetics...
How do you know he does alot of roids?
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How do you know he does alot of roids?
i dont, he could be on minimal amounts. that was the point. nobody knows. so saying "he has great genetics" is mute. you dont know that. all you, or anybody else for that matter, knows is that he has a GREAT PHYSIQUE.
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::)
if you don't gain muscle on 600mg of test a week, you are not human
Thats not the argument here dick snot..
Have you ever heard of diminishing returns?
You have just shot candy down with that comment BTW
'If you cant grow off 600mg a week , you are not human"
Fucking exactly,up to a gram of test , if you cant grow off that then give it up,this sperm puddle thinks you just bang it to 2 ,3 , 4 , 5 grams and pile in other compounds..Totaly clueless,and what makes it worse is the clown thinks kickbacks are better than close grip benches for mass on your triceps..smith deadlifts are superior to off the floor barbell deads the list goes on..
This is why steroids have such a bad rep...goofballs like him
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i dont, he could be on minimal amounts. that was the point. nobody knows. so saying "he has great genetics" is mute. you dont know that. all you, or anybody else for that matter, knows is that he has a GREAT PHYSIQUE.
Then you just totaly fucked up your theory ::)
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Thats not the argument here dick snot..
Have you ever heard of diminishing returns?
You have just shot candy down with that comment BTW
'If you cant grow off 600mg a week , you are not human"
Fucking exactly,up to a gram of test , if you cant grow off that then give it up,this sperm puddle thinks you just bang it to 2 ,3 , 4 , 5 grams and pile in other compounds..Totaly clueless,and what makes it worse is the clown thinks kickbacks are better than close grip benches for mass on your triceps..smith deadlifts are superior to off the floor barbell deads the list goes on..
This is why steroids have such a bad rep...goofballs like him
I agree
you can't just TAKE MORE and get bigger and bigger
if some guy was on 10 grams of test a week he wouldn't beat Ronnie Coleman now
or on 500mg of d-bol doesn't mean it's better than 50mg
steroids are drugs.... people with addiction should get help ???
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Thats not the argument here dick snot..
Have you ever heard of diminishing returns?
You have just shot candy down with that comment BTW
'If you cant grow off 600mg a week , you are not human"
Fucking exactly,up to a gram of test , if you cant grow off that then give it up,this sperm puddle thinks you just bang it to 2 ,3 , 4 , 5 grams and pile in other compounds..Totaly clueless,and what makes it worse is the clown thinks kickbacks are better than close grip benches for mass on your triceps..smith deadlifts are superior to off the floor barbell deads the list goes on..
This is why steroids have such a bad rep...goofballs like him
hahahahaha what do i care if i just disagreed with candy - its not the first time and probably won't be the last.
i wasn't talking about candy, ronnie coleman or anyone in particular. i was talking about joe blow. And my opinion, i do not speak for candy, only myself.
if an average guy cannot grow on 600mg of test something is seriously wrong - and they need to look at other factors i.e. protein/calorie intake, training routine, volume, if gear is fake etc
yes i agree there is a law of diminishing returns, but 600mg is not the peak of the rainbow IMO. perhaps 1000mg is perhaps 2000mg.
I have no doubt a guy that weighs 250 at 5%bf will need more test than a guy at 200 at 5%bf - but there must be a cut off - although to be fair to candy i havn't found it in the literature.
whats your point ?
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hahahahaha what do i care if i just disagreed with candy - its not the first time and probably won't be the last.
i wasn't talking about candy, ronnie coleman or anyone in particular. i was talking about joe blow. And my opinion, i do not speak for candy, only myself.
if an average guy cannot grow on 600mg of test something is seriously wrong - and they need to look at other factors i.e. protein/calorie intake, training routine, volume, if gear is fake etc
yes i agree there is a law of diminishing returns, but 600mg is not the peak of the rainbow IMO. perhaps 1000mg is perhaps 2000mg.
I have no doubt a guy that weighs 250 at 5%bf will need more test than a guy at 200 at 5%bf - but there must be a cut off - although to be fair to candy i havn't found it in the literature.
whats your point ?
OK you agree with me then,my point is when you quoted myself you were agreeing with Taylor.. :)
i havn't found it in the literature
You wont as tests will not be done on hardcore BB.
Actualy the test you posted is flawed in many ways,of course 600mgs of genuine TE will destroy 20 , 50, 100 etc in "athletes" but like you say and in agreement with me , its not a case of ramping up doses to keep improving..it just goes to show candy needs to learn alot more about gear,the thread starter well we already know he is an idiot with little knowledge to how real AAS work..
I do give Candy credit, as much as I flame him (which is warrented with some of the shit he says) at least he is trying to learn..
:)
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Actualy the test you posted is flawed in many ways,of course 600mgs of genuine TE will destroy 20 , 50, 100 etc in "athletes" but like you say and in agreement with me , its not a case of ramping up doses to keep improving..it just goes to show candy needs to learn alot more about gear,the thread starter well we already know he is an idiot with little knowledge to how real AAS work..
I do give Candy credit, as much as I flame him (which is warrented with some of the shit he says) at least he is trying to learn..
:)
::)
The paper i posted is not flawed, you are.
it neither agree's nor disagree with you or candy - it shows that muscle mass results ARE dose dependant on the amount of test taken ( at least up to 600mg a week as thats the highest they studied). however IMO there will be a ceiling at some level - although clearly in that paper 600mg has virtually no sides and much more muscle mass than say 300mg, candy may well still be correct, quite possibly we will never know.
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lol. will you are just looking for things to disagree with me on.
how does my post throw what i said out of the water? you cant KNOW phil has good genetics. he could be on minimal amounts and have good genetics or he could have poor genetics and be on shitloads.
i also agree 600mg is going to make anybody grow. no shit. thats like 30 times the bodys natural production. where did i ever say you cant grow off 600mg ?? lolol
when did i say there wasnt a point of "dminishing returns? " i didnt, however you cant prove that and most science would indicate that no such thing real exists... since the effects of mg of andro is exponential with increasing amounts.. do i need to explain to you all of the mechnisms through which AAS contribute to muscle growth, or would you like to just stop with your nonsense ? hahah
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Yes, I missed most of this thread, but Tbomz ur wrong, sorry.
For 90% of people, no amount or combination of drugs will turn someone into a pro level bodybuilder.
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Yes, I missed most of this thread, but Tbomz ur wrong, sorry.
For 90% of people, no amount or combination of drugs will turn someone into a pro level bodybuilder.
no thats only a myth.
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Yes, I missed most of this thread, but Tbomz ur wrong, sorry.
For 90% of people, no amount or combination of drugs will turn someone into a pro level bodybuilder.
you said you never took more than 1700mg a week.
so how do you know?
you had a great physique,. and you never took more than 1700. i betr if you upped the dose or incorporated other durgs, you would have GREATLY imporved. obviously. undoubtedly.
now of cours eim not syaing everyoine can be a pro bodybuilder because alot of that has to do with skeletal structure, muscle shape, and also politics (loook at sami the blacksmith)
but anybody could get pro level muscle
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::)
The paper i posted is not flawed, you are.
it neither agree's nor disagree with you or candy - it shows that muscle mass results ARE dose dependant on the amount of test taken ( at least up to 600mg a week as thats the highest they studied). however IMO there will be a ceiling at some level - although clearly in that paper 600mg has virtually no sides and much more muscle mass than say 300mg, candy may well still be correct, quite possibly we will never know.
It is so flawed,we were arguing at dose dependent levels over a gram a week and you pull a test out your ass that measures bodyfat levels comparing 20mg vs 600mg.
Ill ask again post a test that prooves Candy right , not somthing that is considered a "average" starting dose of Test E in your everyday first time juice user..
::)
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no thats only a myth.
Nope its a fact.
Sorry but waaay too many of you have a mythical ideology of what drugs can do.
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you said you never took more than 1700mg a week.
so how do you know?
you had a great physique,. and you never took more than 1700. i betr if you upped the dose or incorporated other durgs, you would have GREATLY imporved. obviously. undoubtedly.
now of cours eim not syaing everyoine can be a pro bodybuilder because alot of that has to do with skeletal structure, muscle shape, and also politics (loook at sami the blacksmith)
but anybody could get pro level muscle
Oh ok, different discussion then.
Like I said I didnt read the whole thread, but I saw somewhere u said that anyone could be Mr.O, which I'll guess then u didnt mean literally.
Oh and maybe I was in the 10% that could :P
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Nope its a fact.
Sorry but waaay too many of you have a mythical ideology of what drugs can do.
dude he was agreeing with you ;D
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Oh and maybe I was in the 10% that could :P
nope. you were not .
know how i know?
you told me in a p.m. ! ;D
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lol. will you are just looking for things to disagree with me on.
how does my post throw what i said out of the water? you cant KNOW phil has good genetics. he could be on minimal amounts and have good genetics or he could have poor genetics and be on shitloads.
i also agree 600mg is going to make anybody grow. no shit. thats like 30 times the bodys natural production. where did i ever say you cant grow off 600mg ?? lolol
when did i say there wasnt a point of "dminishing returns? " i didnt, however you cant prove that and most science would indicate that no such thing real exists... since the effects of mg of andro is exponential with increasing amounts.. do i need to explain to you all of the mechnisms through which AAS contribute to muscle growth, or would you like to just stop with your nonsense ? hahah
No..the word here is genetics..which has gone right over your head , go back and read what you said..
You said you just ramp the doses way up and thats all it takes to be a Phill heath,thats not the case , he has the genetics to look like that,you now have done and about turn and said "he may" be on small amounts no one knows , that shoots down your original post of just ramp the gear to keep growing which is not the case..
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nope. you were not .
know how i know?
you told me in a p.m. ! ;D
LOL ok ok ;D
Please continue, good thread.
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No..the word here is genetics..which has gone right over your head , go back and read what you said..
You said you just ramp the doses way up and thats all it takes to be a Phill heath,thats not the case , he has the genetics to look like that,you now have done and about turn and said "he may" be on small amounts no one knows , that shoots down your original post of just ramp the gear to keep growing which is not the case..
phils sturcture is the same regardless of genetics. if he has poor genetic response to hromones YES he can just ramp the dose ad incorporate other durgs. ANYONE willl grow using bodybuilding drugs. ANYONE. how much the grow in relation to amount of drugs differs, and the body structure of each person is different. but if phil heath had shit response he could just take more and learn more and still have the same body..
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It is so flawed,we were arguing at dose dependent levels over a gram a week and you pull a test out your ass that measures bodyfat levels comparing 20mg vs 600mg.
Ill ask again post a test that prooves Candy right , not somthing that is considered a "average" starting dose of Test E in your everyday first time juice user..
::)
you have clearly not even read it, stop embarrassing yourself with your ignorance.
if you read it, maybe you will learn something.
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LOL ok ok ;D
Please continue, good thread.
Go back and read the whole thread mate , you were correct with your first post,Candy stated in his firstfew posts its all about ramping the doses to get like that or "grow" which is wrong.
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phils sturcture is the same regardless of genetics. if he has poor genetic response to hromones YES he can just ramp the dose ad incorporate other durgs. ANYONE willl grow using bodybuilding drugs. ANYONE. how much the grow in relation to amount of drugs differs, and the body structure of each person is different. but if phil heath had shit response he could just take more and learn more and still have the same body..
this is 100% true.
the myth is believing that some people do not respond to gear no matter what - everyone responds, everyone grows, however not everyone becomes mr o - that takes more ( see earlier post, for further details ;D)
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you have clearly not even read it, stop embarrassing yourself with your ignorance.
if you read it, maybe you will learn something.
I have read you have not posted a test result of dose related TE admin of over a gram a week..you have compared a dose of small amounts (in bb standards) vs 600mg(close to an av starting dose for bb) of course 600mg will pwnt 20 mg are you that thick?
The argument is Candy saying you just keep ramping from 2.3.4.5 grams of test a week to keep growing..
Which you have agreedis wrong..
stop embarrassing yourself with your ignorance
Ditto
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phils sturcture is the same regardless of genetics. if he has poor genetic response to hromones YES he can just ramp the dose ad incorporate other durgs. ANYONE willl grow using bodybuilding drugs. ANYONE. how much the grow in relation to amount of drugs differs, and the body structure of each person is different. but if phil heath had shit response he could just take more and learn more and still have the same body..
I disagree.Go back and review what you said first up.. :)
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Go back and read the whole thread mate , you were correct with your first post,Candy stated in his firstfew posts its all about ramping the doses to get like that or "grow" which is wrong.
Well, I'm watching Desperate Housewives ;D, so I'm too involved to read the whole thing but I'll just lay the smacketh down as such:
The administration of drugs/food/training, will cause anyone to grow.
The response to drugs, the shape of the muscle, and the amount of muscle potentially carried are all genetic factors which very based on the individual.
A pro has almost the best conditions of all these factors.
While true, ramping up the dosage will cause gains to increase, if you're not a pro on 5g of anabolics a week, you wont be a pro on 6g ew, 7g ew, or even 20g ew.
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I have read you have not posted a test result of dose related TE admin of over a gram a week..you have compared a dose of small amounts (in bb standards) vs 600mg(close to an av starting dose for bb) of course 600mg will pwnt 20 mg are you that thick?
The argument is Candy saying you just keep ramping from 2.3.4.5 grams of test a week to keep growing..
Which you have agreedis wrong..
Ditto
fvck off you clown, you have not read it.
it does not only compare 20mg with 600mg ::)
what an imbecile you are - now that i am aware i can disregard your posts from now on.
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fvck off you clown, you have not read it.
it does not only compare 20mg with 600mg ::)
what an imbecile you are - now that i am aware i can disregard your posts from now on.
That wasnt the point fuckhead it compared 25, 50, 125, 300, or 600 mg/wk
25 mg so i was 5mg out at that low dose do you expect anymore ::)
So imbecile it is comparing 25mg vs 600mg as well as 50 , 125 and 300mg of course upto 600-mg the higher dose in this study will conquer the others,you truly are stupid...again its a mute point and has no bearing on this argument..
Now show me the tests that showed what I asked and what you agreed with me on..fukin dopey girl ::)
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you asked for:
Show me studies that proove Candi correct..e.g more gear = more mass and Im not talking scale weight,Im talking quality LBM
that study gives you exactly that - stop embarrassing yourself.
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you asked for:
that study gives you exactly that - stop embarrassing yourself.
You know we were talking dose related over a gram..he was advocating 2,3,4,5 grams was all it took. ::)
If you look what I said you will see you are indeed the embarassment for even pulling that idiotic study up..
Keep trying fatty :-*
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You know we were talking dose related over a gram..he was advocating 2,3,4,5 grams was all it took. ::)
you asked for a study that proves more gear = more mass
600mg is more gear than 300mg - it proved that more gear = more mass.
as i said above when talking about 2,3,4g dosages, yes IMO there must be a ceiling - however this study does not show that.
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YEAH BABY!!!!!!!
LIGHT WEIGHT BABYYYYYY!!!!!!!
AINT NOTHING BUT A PEANUT!!!!!
HOOOOO.....HOOOOOO....TI ME TO BLEED
YEAH BUDDY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AIN'T NOTHING TO IT BUT TO DO IT
YEP YEP YEP
;D
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you asked for a study that proves more gear = more mass
600mg is more gear than 300mg - it proved that more gear = more mass.
as i said above when talking about 2,3,4g dosages, yes IMO there must be a ceiling - however this study does not show that.
Yes but that study had no relation to what we were disscussing..
It says "a t4est that prooves candi right"
Now you must of knew what I meant if you were reading the thread..
Your test is correct in what it found ,yes..but it has nothing to do with what we were discussing
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Yes but that study had no relation to what we were disscussing..
It says "a t4est that prooves candi right"
Now you must of knew what I meant if you were reading the thread..
Your test is correct in what it found ,yes..but it has nothing to do with what we were discussing
it did prove candy right to a degree.
you have been owned will.
-
YEAH BABY!!!!!!!
LIGHT WEIGHT BABYYYYYY!!!!!!!
AINT NOTHING BUT A PEANUT!!!!!
HOOOOO.....HOOOOOO....TI ME TO BLEED
YEAH BUDDY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AIN'T NOTHING TO IT BUT TO DO IT
YEP YEP YEP
;D
a VERY good point made by here by AXA.
enough with the nonsense, fatpanda thank you for taking part in this thread, willgrant one day may you be freed from your ignorance, now heres a viddeo for all to enjoy... we can all agree that no amount of hormones will make anybody here into this, and also that it tok an extrordinary amount of homrones to create this
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it did prove candy right to a degree.
you have been owned will.
How is comparing 600mg vs lower doses(your study) comparitive to what candy said..keep ramping doses 2,3,4,5 grams to keep growing...
You ageed with me which prooves Candy wrong.
as i said above when talking about 2,3,4g dosages, yes IMO there must be a ceiling - however this study does not show that
Proove there is even any comparison to those two examples and Ill concede ownage...
You wont be able to though.
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a VERY good point made by here by AXA.
enough with the nonsense, fatpanda thank you for taking part in this thread, willgrant one day may you be freed from your ignorance, now heres a viddeo for all to enjoy... we can all agree that no amount of hormones will make anybody here into this, and also that it tok an extrordinary amount of homrones to create this
my pleasure candy.
ronnie looked amazing there - also the first time i have seen a video of the 98 mr o. 8)
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How is comparing 600mg vs lower doses(your study) comparitive to what candy said..keep ramping doses 2,3,4,5 grams to keep growing...
You ageed with me which prooves Candy wrong.
Proove there is even any comparison to those two examples and Ill concede ownage...
You wont be able to though.
hahahaha there is no conceding required - you have been owned.
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my pleasure candy.
ronnie looked amazing there - also the first time i have seen a video of the 98 mr o. 8)
In my opinion that is the apex, never before and never since then has a human ever came as close to perfection as ronnie did on that night.
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how do you know he has good genetics?
he could have went straight to mega doses and slin and in three years time anybody who goes straight to mega doses hard trianing and lots of food will beocme a monster... maybe if you know for a fact phil was only using minima amounts then you can say he has amazing genetics BUT you dont know.. phil could have average genetics...
Just to drive this point home to the clueless to what Candy first said...
So anybody who megadoses ,trains hard ,eats alot of food will become "a monster" or the comparisson =Phill heath..
No fuckin way..So Candy show us your development after 1 1/2 years of abuse , as according to you ANYONE can become a monster as the comparrisson is "Phil Heath" so are you nearly ready to hit the Mr O?all it takes is megadoses,food,training.
Fuckin idiots...thats ownage ;)
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hahahaha there is no conceding required - you have been owned.
Where?
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In my opinion that is the apex, never before and never since then has a human ever came as close to perfection as ronnie did on that night.
I still can't believe he went on stage with that MASSIVE gyno on his left pec :o
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Fat P, I just had a PM saying you were Candys gimmick :o
Truth?
-
Some of you guys just like to bitch and argue about the stupidest shit. Bottomline is it takes two things to become an IFBB pro. Drugs and genetics. You gotta have both not one or the other. Heath has BOTH! He's obviously got the genetics.....look at his fucking legs when he was a basketball player. He's got fucking tree trunk legs and calves. Obviously his entire body responds well to drugs. How much is he taking? No one but him knows. It could be a couple grams of test a week plus boatloads of GH or it could be a lot less than you think. He's black. Blacks have much better genetics on average for putting on muscle. Why is it that the top guys have been black for a long ass time. The fucking negroid genetics. Sorry but Dorian was shit compared to some of the black bodybuilders as far as quality of muscle. Dorian no matter what he took would never have the quality of size and mass that Ronnie had. Dorian's muscles looked like drug muscle. Piss poor quality. Plain and simple. Arnold never would have gotten as big as Ronnie plain and simple no matter what he took. Greg Kovacs would never look like Ronnie even though he weighed well over 350+ lbs at times. It's all fucking genetics and drugs. Heath's physique is very much all drugs too though. He fucking blew up in a matter of a few years. Did you ever see Haney or Sergio go from athletic build to huge BBer? Fuck no. Those guys worked on their physique drugs or not for years and years if not decades. Look at young pictures of Sergio, Haney, Dickerson, Harold Poole etc. Sergio started off as a powerlifter. He was always a strong, powerful human being.
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I'm not saying black bodybuilders are better than white bodybuilders as far as bodybuilders. Demayo, Mattarrazo, Milos etc. are all huge guys at one point. But they never had the QUALITY and MASS that the blacks have had. Plus I'm sure the blacks have to take a lot less drugs than the whites. It's always been rumored Arnold took twice as much as Sergio to keep up with him. Maybe it's true maybe not.
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Fat P, I just had a PM saying you were Candys gimmick :o
Truth?
funnily enough i also just recieved a pm saying you were just owned badly, and to please take it easy on you ;D
Some of you guys just like to bitch and argue about the stupidest shit. Bottomline is it takes two things to become an IFBB pro. Drugs and genetics. You gotta have both not one or the other. Heath has BOTH! He's obviously got the genetics.....look at his fucking legs when he was a basketball player. He's got fucking tree trunk legs and calves. Obviously his entire body responds well to drugs. How much is he taking? No one but him knows. It could be a couple grams of test a week plus boatloads of GH or it could be a lot less than you think. He's black. Blacks have much better genetics on average for putting on muscle. Why is it that the top guys have been black for a long ass time. The fucking negroid genetics. Sorry but Dorian was shit compared to some of the black bodybuilders as far as quality of muscle. Dorian no matter what he took would never have the quality of size and mass that Ronnie had. Dorian's muscles looked like drug muscle. Piss poor quality. Plain and simple. Arnold never would have gotten as big as Ronnie plain and simple no matter what he took. Greg Kovacs would never look like Ronnie even though he weighed well over 350+ lbs at times. It's all fucking genetics and drugs. Heath's physique is very much all drugs too though. He fucking blew up in a matter of a few years. Did you ever see Haney or Sergio go from athletic build to huge BBer? Fuck no. Those guys worked on their physique drugs or not for years and years if not decades. Look at young pictures of Sergio, Haney, Dickerson, Harold Poole etc. Sergio started off as a powerlifter. He was always a strong, powerful human being.
once again you reveal how much of a clown you are.
-
Some of you guys just like to bitch and argue about the stupidest shit. Bottomline is it takes two things to become an IFBB pro. Drugs and genetics. You gotta have both not one or the other. Heath has BOTH! He's obviously got the genetics.....look at his fucking legs when he was a basketball player. He's got fucking tree trunk legs and calves. Obviously his entire body responds well to drugs. How much is he taking? No one but him knows. It could be a couple grams of test a week plus boatloads of GH or it could be a lot less than you think. He's black. Blacks have much better genetics on average for putting on muscle. Why is it that the top guys have been black for a long ass time. The fucking negroid genetics. Sorry but Dorian was shit compared to some of the black bodybuilders as far as quality of muscle. Dorian no matter what he took would never have the quality of size and mass that Ronnie had. Dorian's muscles looked like drug muscle. Piss poor quality. Plain and simple. Arnold never would have gotten as big as Ronnie plain and simple no matter what he took. Greg Kovacs would never look like Ronnie even though he weighed well over 350+ lbs at times. It's all fucking genetics and drugs. Heath's physique is very much all drugs too though. He fucking blew up in a matter of a few years. Did you ever see Haney or Sergio go from athletic build to huge BBer? Fuck no. Those guys worked on their physique drugs or not for years and years if not decades. Look at young pictures of Sergio, Haney, Dickerson, Harold Poole etc. Sergio started off as a powerlifter. He was always a strong, powerful human being.
Yup..these fuckin morons just dont understand..candy quoting the gh15 bullshit just shows his true intelect..
And Candy , the best bodybuilders in the world are also the best genetic responders to gear..they are the cream of the crop in responding to every stimulus plus they have the genetic potential to look like they do...
You can give all the steroids in the world to a Chihuahua it wont turn him into a great dane..so you saying anybody can become a monster all they need is mega doses is total bullshit. ::)
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funnily enough i also just recieved a pm saying you were just owned badly, and to please take it easy on you ;D
once again you reveal how much of a clown you are.
Its clear to the ones that actualy know what they are talking about that the ownage like normal is on you Candy..
Go sit in the corner shut ya trap and listen .. ;)
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Its clear to the ones that actualy know what they are talking about that the ownage like normal is on you Candy..
Go sit in the corner shut ya trap and listen .. ;)
hahahahaha owned so badly you just cannot let it go.........
don't cry. i feel your pain. :)
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You guys sure do take this stuff seriously. :-\
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hahahahaha owned so badly you just cannot let it go.........
don't cry. i feel your pain. :)
yet you cant show where I was owned?
Fact:you post a test that had nothing to do with the discussion...you = owned.
Fact:you agree with me that you just cant keep ramping doses as there is a ceiling...Candy = owned
Fact:It takes more than just gear to become a monster or in the comparitive case Phil Heath/Mr O contender.
But candy claims anyone can become this instance all it takes is megadoses,food and training..Candy = owned and if you agree
FP = owned also...
You are quite the deluded little panda arnt you , no wonder your species is nearly completly wiped out ;)
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You guys sure do take this stuff seriously. :-\
Na just bored and its so easy to own the kids :D
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funnily enough i also just recieved a pm saying you were just owned badly, and to please take it easy on you ;D
once again you reveal how much of a clown you are.
I just got 20 PM's saying your the biggest clueless dipshit this board has ever seen and to just ignore you! You're a moron.
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yet you cant show where I was owned?
Fact:you post a test that had nothing to do with the discussion...you = owned.
Fact:you agree with me that you just cant keep ramping doses as there is a ceiling...Candy = owned
Fact:It takes more than just gear to become a monster or in the comparitive case Phil Heath/Mr O contender.
But candy claims anyone can become this instance all it takes is megadoses,food and training..Candy = owned and if you agree
FP = owned also...
You are quite the deluded little panda arnt you , no wonder your species is nearly completly wiped out ;)
hahahahahahaha
you asked for a study that showed more gear = more muscle - i provided it.
now you are back tracking trying to regain the little once of credibility you once had.
you have failed.
:-*
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I just got 20 PM's saying your the biggest clueless dipshit this board has ever seen and to just ignore you! You're a moron.
;D
(http://guy.jpg)
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hahahahahahaha
you asked for a study that showed more gear = more muscle - i provided it.
now you are back tracking trying to regain the little once of credibility you once had.
you have failed.
:-*
No I asked for a study to Proove Candis point e.g more gear as in 2,3,4,5 grams a weeks..no back tracking..
If it wasnt worded correctly for you to understand after reading what we had been "discussing" then you clearly are very stupid
Facts seem to hurt you and you tend to avoid them ;)
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No I asked for a study to Proove Candis point e.g more gear as in 2,3,4,5 grams a weeks..no back tracking..
If it wasnt worded correctly for you to understand after reading what we had been "discussing" then you clearly are very stupid
Facts seem to hurt you and you tend to avoid them ;)
LOL.
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No I asked for a study to Proove Candis point e.g more gear as in 2,3,4,5 grams a weeks..no back tracking..
If it wasnt worded correctly for you to understand after reading what we had been "discussing" then you clearly are very stupid
Facts seem to hurt you and you tend to avoid them ;)
hahahahahaha
(http://guy.jpg)
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LOL.
I cant spell :D
-
hahahahahaha
(http://guy.jpg)
When you start reaching for that pic it shows you have been owned..
Thanks for playing little man :-*
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I cant spell :D
or think logically it seems ::)
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or think logically it seems ::)
Logic and fact two points that seem lost on you ::)
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When you start reaching for that pic it shows you have been owned..
Thanks for playing little man :-*
hahahaha look you simpleton
let me break it down for you once again.
you asked for a study that shows more gear equals more muscle, i provided it = you owned.
you claimed it was a useless study as it was on fat loss for people taking test - exposing yourself as a fool = you owned.
you then claimed it showed nothing about muscle mass- exposing yourself as a fool again = you owned
then finally you read it - and realised it was exactly what you asked for, then started back peddling, claiming you were asking for something else = you owned again.
now, go to bed son.
it will all be better in the morning.
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hahahaha look you simpleton
let me break it down for you once again.
you asked for a study that shows more gear equals more muscle, i provided it = you owned.
you claimed it was a useless study as it was on fat loss for people taking test - exposing yourself as a fool = you owned.
you then claimed it showed nothing about muscle mass- exposing yourself as a fool again = you owned
then finally you read it - and realised it was exactly what you asked for, then started back peddling, claiming you were asking for something else = you owned again.
now, go to bed son.
it will all be better in the morning.
Excuse me? I asked for a study that showed Candi was right ,pumping more gear into you = more lbm..If you have read the disscussion you would know he was claiming 2,3,4,5 grams..you come up with a weak study that showed 600mg gives more gains than 25 , 50 ,125.300 umm duhhh are you really that thick? you then contradict yourself and say You agree with me that there is a ceiling , you cant keep ramping gear to = gains..you = owned.
The study was and is useless in this disscussion ...you = owned
Where did I say it said nothing about muscle mass? i looked at it and saw the doses and that was it ,it has nothing to do with this disscussion..ypu = owned..
I read it saw the doses laughed at how silly you were for posting it and asked for one using the doses we were disscussing..you = owned yet again...
Fact is not your strong point is it?
In the morning still wont change the fact you posted a study that had nothing to do with what we were disscussing..
25MG VS 600MG a starting dose by bb standards ahahahaha what a fuckin peice of wet sick you are.. ::)
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Excuse me? I asked for a study that showed Candi was right ,pumping more gear into you = more lbm..If you have read the disscussion you would know he was claiming 2,3,4,5 grams..you come up with a weak study that showed 600mg gives more gains than 25 , 50 ,125.300 umm duhhh are you really that thick? you then contradict yourself and say You agree with me that there is a ceiling , you cant keep ramping gear to = gains..you = owned.
The study was and is useless in this disscussion ...you = owned
Where did I say it said nothing about muscle mass? i looked at it and saw the doses and that was it ,it has nothing to do with this disscussion..ypu = owned..
I read it saw the doses laughed at how silly you were for posting it and asked for one using the doses we were disscussing..you = owned yet again...
Fact is not your strong point is it?
LOL ;D
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LOL ;D
Thanks Mum ;D
Il blame the ECA and no carbs :D
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i have been owned
(http://a.abcnews.com/images/Health/ht_shock_060727_ssv.jpg)
fixed
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fixed
It took you 30mins to think of somthing as childish as that? You seem to like trolling the net looking for studys but studys that also have nothing to do with what we were discussing That is FACT,you sound like a geek with 12 inch arms that has no knowledge or experience out in the real world,how close am I , I think Im spot on ...again..
Owned, lmao..dude you have offered nothing to what we were discussing and you then turn around and contradict yourself when you chip in to what actualy was being discussed higher doses in the 2,3,4,5 gram area.
Sadly for you fact has owned you , now get back onto google and look for another "pubmed" study that has nothing to do with what the topic of discussion is or was...
::) GEEK
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It took you 30mins to think of somthing as childish as that? You seem to like trolling the net looking for studys but studys that also have nothing to do with what we were discussing That is FACT,you sound like a geek with 12 inch arms that has no knowledge or experience out in the real world,how close am I , I think Im spot on ...again..
Owned, lmao..dude you have offered nothing to what we were discussing and you then turn around and contradict yourself when you chip in to what actualy was being discussed higher doses in the 2,3,4,5 gram area.
Sadly for you fact has owned you , now get back onto google and look for another "pubmed" study that has nothing to do with what the topic of discussion is or was...
::) GEEK
hahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahaha
(http://a.abcnews.com/images/Health/ht_shock_060727_ssv.jpg)
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hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
(http://a.abcnews.com/images/Health/ht_shock_060727_ssv.jpg)
I rest my case..FP = Owned Geek ;)
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I rest my case..FP = Owned Geek ;)
hahahaha you were 'owned' on page 8.
try to keep up. ;)
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hahahaha you were 'owned' on page 8.
try to keep up. ;)
Fail..
Id love to stay and destroy you some more but I have to go Tan and run stairs for PM cardio..you see I actualy live this lifestyle e.g "real world" not sitting on a message board where you gather your facts from online studys that have no bearing on a discussion(you owned yourself when you posted that btw)and in reality have no bearing out in the real world where life is not "controled"
Ta Ta Mr 12 inch Arms from Geekville. :-*
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Fail..
Id love to stay and destroy you some more but I have to go Tan and run stairs for PM cardio..you see I actualy live this lifestyle e.g "real world" not sitting on a message board where you gather your facts from online studys that have no bearing on a discussion(you owned yourself when you posted that btw)and in reality have no bearing out in the real world where life is not "controled"
Ta Ta Mr 12 inch Arms from Geekville. :-*
:D
run forrest run, run from the pain.
(http://www.geektyrant.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/forrest-gump-1.jpg)
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how do you know he has good genetics?
he could have went straight to mega doses and slin and in three years time anybody who goes straight to mega doses hard trianing and lots of food will beocme a monster... maybe if you know for a fact phil was only using minima amounts then you can say he has amazing genetics BUT you dont know.. phil could have average genetics...
Ill tell u how i know that he has great genetics. Three short reasons that tell me so :)
He played division 1 college basketball. Which is no ez feat.
He's 5'9 and can dunk a basketball ( thats a pretty amazing vertical leap )
He is one of the top 3 bodybuilders in the world after only training for about six years or so.
Oh yea and look at his calves in that basketball pic, u can tell he has an athletic physique just from that pic. And it takes great genetics to do most of what phil has done ( what i listed above )
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Ill tell u how i know that he has great genetics. Three short reasons that tell me so :)
He played division 1 college basketball. Which is no ez feat.
He's 5'9 and can dunk a basketball ( thats a pretty amazing vertical leap )
He is one of the top 3 bodybuilders in the world after only training for about six years or so.
Oh yea and look at his calves in that basketball pic, u can tell he has an athletic physique just from that pic. And it takes great genetics to do most of what phil has done ( what i listed above )
I thought it was more like 3 or 4.
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Id love to stay and destroy you some more but I have to go Tan and run stairs for PM cardio..you see I actualy live this lifestyle e.g "real world" not sitting on a message board where you gather your facts from online studys that have no bearing on a discussion(you owned yourself when you posted that btw)and in reality have no bearing out in the real world where life is not "controled"
:-X
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Ill tell u how i know that he has great genetics. Three short reasons that tell me so :)
He played division 1 college basketball. Which is no ez feat.
He's 5'9 and can dunk a basketball ( thats a pretty amazing vertical leap )
He is one of the top 3 bodybuilders in the world after only training for about six years or so.
Oh yea and look at his calves in that basketball pic, u can tell he has an athletic physique just from that pic. And it takes great genetics to do most of what phil has done ( what i listed above )
Good answer to a stupid statement. How can someone try to say Heath doesn't have excellent genetics? ???
Sorry, but there's nothing "average" about Heath's genetics, or every gym rat could take high amounts of drugs and be top 3 at the O. ::)
Whether Heath has used tons of drugs to achieve that look or not, there is no question he is very genetically gifted.
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no ones arguing about needing genetics to win the mr o or get that specific look, however in heaths case:
he clearly has been given exact advice in what/how much gear to take - for bulking and getting cut.
he clearly has been given exact advice in what/how much 'research' drugs to take.
he clearly has been given exact off season nutritional advice - pre contest and bulking.
he clearly has ben given exact advice on how much volume/seight/sets to use for maximum effect while on gear.
he clearly has been given exact peaking advice.
top secret advice - restricted to top pro's.
anyone who is given all of the above will look like a beast - anyone.
not everyone will achieve a symetrical, pleasing to the eye physique - due to genetics.
not everyone will have no side effects from the different gear - due to genetics.
not everyone will get that supershredded look easily - due to genetics (but if you push the diet+gear to extremes anyone can achieve this too)
but everyone will grow massive amounts of muscle.
the point i made before - never in the medical history of steroid use has there ever been a 'genetic non responder' to gear. It has never happened.
Some people might like the idea of, i'm not growing because its my genetics ::) but in fact its because you have fvcked up 1 of a number of factors - i.e. not enough protein/and or calories, over training/under training, gear is fake, gear use not optimised in terms of half lives etc, pre contest diet not optimal, therefore burning lots of muscle you have gained off season, etc etc.
-
no ones arguing about needing genetics to win the mr o or get that specific look, however in heaths case:
he clearly has been given exact advice in what/how much gear to take - for bulking and getting cut.
he clearly has been given exact advice in what/how much 'research' drugs to take.
he clearly has been given exact off season nutritional advice - pre contest and bulking.
he clearly has ben given exact advice on how much volume/seight/sets to use for maximum effect while on gear.
he clearly has been given exact peaking advice.
top secret advice - restricted to top pro's.
anyone who is given all of the above will look like a beast - anyone.
not everyone will achieve a symetrical, pleasing to the eye physique - due to genetics.
not everyone will have no side effects from the different gear - due to genetics.
not everyone will get that supershredded look easily - due to genetics (but if you push the diet+gear to extremes anyone can achieve this too)
but everyone will grow massive amounts of muscle.
the point i made before - never in the medical history of steroid use has there ever been a 'genetic non responder' to gear. It has never happened.
Some people might like the idea of, i'm not growing because its my genetics ::) but in fact its because you have fvcked up 1 of a number of factors - i.e. not enough protein/and or calories, over training/under training, gear is fake, gear use not optimised in terms of half lives etc, pre contest diet not optimal, therefore burning lots of muscle you have gained off season, etc etc.
phil hooked up with jay when he was still an amateur. that answers anyone's question. i think anyone can be a pro bber. tom prince and some of these other jacks dont have superior genetics. they did the extremes which it takes to become a bber. 80% of the guys i've crossed over the yrs had the goods but didnt want to mess with NEEDLES or the pharmacy kits. of course there are pure athletes like phil (DU), ronnie (Grambling LB), shawn (a good enough RB to get a lower D1 SS in his day). this super genetics s##t and bbing is a complete joke.
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phil hooked up with jay when he was still an amateur. that answers anyone's question. i think anyone can be a pro bber. tom prince and some of these other jacks dont have superior genetics. they did the extremes which it takes to become a bber. 80% of the guys i've crossed over the yrs had the goods but didnt want to mess with NEEDLES or the pharmacy kits. of course there are pure athletes like phil (DU), ronnie (Grambling LB), shawn (a good enough RB to get a lower D1 SS in his day). this super genetics s##t and bbing is a complete joke.
so you're saying these guys were the best at what they did in the field where EVERYBODY takes steroids...why? ::)
markus ruhl took so much shit it would make your head spin, why did he never finish top 6?
do you have ANY idea how much genetics and bodybuilding is related?
muscle bellies, muscle shape, muscle insertions, joint size, bone structure, clavicles width, symmetry, proportion, ability to pack on muscle, ability to lose fat, response to steroids ???
everyday I hear something that is more retarded than the other here on getbig
(http://kulturystyka.magicsport.pl/IMG/slownik/flexwheeler/flexwheeler3.jpg)
(http://www.sekta.org/Ronnie_Coleman_Mr.Olympia.jpg/Ronnie_Coleman_Mr.Olympia-full.jpg)
(http://www.musclestore.com/images/kevin-levrone.jpg)
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Genetics Eugenics PED
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Genetics Eugenics PED
;D
'ttt' !!!
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phil hooked up with jay when he was still an amateur. that answers anyone's question. i think anyone can be a pro bber. tom prince and some of these other jacks dont have superior genetics. they did the extremes which it takes to become a bber. 80% of the guys i've crossed over the yrs had the goods but didnt want to mess with NEEDLES or the pharmacy kits. of course there are pure athletes like phil (DU), ronnie (Grambling LB), shawn (a good enough RB to get a lower D1 SS in his day). this super genetics s##t and bbing is a complete joke.
tell me.... can this guy win Mr. Olympia if he took enough drugs? ::)
(http://estrip.org/elmwood/users/paul/images/0106/SkinnyFat4549.jpg)
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tell me.... can this guy win Mr. Olympia if he took enough drugs? ::)
(http://estrip.org/elmwood/users/paul/images/0106/SkinnyFat4549.jpg)
he didnt say mr olympia he said pro.
i disgaree, because its not as simple as getting pro size muscles. i agree anybody can get pro sized muscles though. but the physique itself ...nah, not everybody oculd get that pro level physique.
anyway, ths guy might be able to be mr olympia. ever seen pics of nasser e sonbaty at 20 y.o. ?? how about dorian yates as a kid? see levrone now? see tome prince now? see dave palumbo in college as a track athlete???
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he didnt say mr olympia he said pro.
i disgaree, because its not as simple as getting pro size muscles. i agree anybody can get pro sized muscles though. but the physique itself ...nah, not everybody oculd get that pro level physique.
anyway, ths guy might be able to be mr olympia. ever seen pics of nasser e sonbaty at 20 y.o. ?? how about dorian yates as a kid? see levrone now? see tome prince now? see dave palumbo in college as a track athlete???
:D :D :D :D :D ::)
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:D :D :D :D :D ::)
dorian yates was mr olympia. he was skinny as fuck as kid.
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dorian yates was mr olympia. he was skinny as fuck as kid.
candizzle....EVERYBODY was skinny as fuck as a kid....unless they were fat
I was a pretty big kid, I was born 4.5 kilos which is not bad
and I was pretty big growing up too...never fat ..not even close
then grade 9 came...I got on a scale and I was 145 pounds ???
HAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAH AHAHHA
now Im about 100 pounds heavier so we are all good ;D
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dorian yates was mr olympia. he was skinny as fuck as kid.
so was Arnold ;)
I don't know if we have had a Mr. O who was fat as a kid?
maybe Ronnie? ;D
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so was Arnold ;)
I don't know if we have had a Mr. O who was fat as a kid?
maybe Ronnie? ;D
evan centaponi was OBESE as a kid. up untill he was like 15 years old. im tyring to find a picture of him for you, theres on of him in a bathing suit with a friend of his and he has moobs and rools all up and down his sides. very fat kid. now evan is one of the best young bodybuilders in the sport today.
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tell me.... can this guy win Mr. Olympia if he took enough drugs? ::)
(http://estrip.org/elmwood/users/paul/images/0106/SkinnyFat4549.jpg)
1. no problem w/needles
2. no problem w/unk pharmacy kits
3. eat like a pig
4. hookup earlier in the game w/a guy in the know like phil w/jay or shawn/melvin w/ john brown
5. throw all caution in the wind
yes...he can be come a pro just like a skinny a$$ flex and tom prince off of drugs.
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1. no problem w/needles
2. no problem w/unk pharmacy kits
3. eat like a pig
4. hookup earlier in the game w/a guy in the know like phil w/jay or shawn/melvin w/ john brown
5. throw all caution in the wind
yes...he can be come a pro just like a skinny a$$ flex and tom prince off of drugs.
What about Palumbo?
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phil hooked up with jay when he was still an amateur. that answers anyone's question. i think anyone can be a pro bber. tom prince and some of these other jacks dont have superior genetics. they did the extremes which it takes to become a bber. 80% of the guys i've crossed over the yrs had the goods but didnt want to mess with NEEDLES or the pharmacy kits. of course there are pure athletes like phil (DU), ronnie (Grambling LB), shawn (a good enough RB to get a lower D1 SS in his day). this super genetics s##t and bbing is a complete joke.
Are you kidding me with this?
Phil Heath won his first 2 shows on nothing against guys who were loaded to the hilt trying to stand up there next to him (this is known).....any of you guys look like Heath in the before shot clean? Thats genetics!!! If you cant tell the difference in the 2 pictures I have no idea what to say to you.
Tom Prince was freaking huge as an amateur...I interviewed him back then in the 90's and asked him what he did off the record....he said "wait a second Ill fax it over to you what i did for the nats".....30 secs later he faxed it over.....he was off for most of the year pre procard and then did dosages you would see a middleweight competitor use nowadays for a local show.
You guys keep using Tom Prince as the key to your argument....what do you expect a guy on kidney dialysis to look like? JACKED? Hmmm let me think....try to hold onto a bunch of muscle for the Getbig crew and die or atrophy down to nothing as the doctors have told him to so he can live a somewhat normal (as healthy as he can) life? Touch choice there...what should he do? What would you guys do? Die so the guys at getbig say "well at least he died in his 30's looking big, thats all that matters, not his wife and family"
I dont know if you guys are in a bubble or what....but one million people have admitted to using steroids in the USA...thats one out of every 300 people.....lets cut the elderly, children and women out of the picture and what are we down to.....1 out of every 75 guys? How many monstrously huge people do you see walking around?!?! A million? Not even close.
How many muscle boards are there? 15 big ones....all with at least 30 thousand members some with upwards toward 100 thousand members, many been around for 10 years or so......a huge amount of those members on those boards (especially the anabolic based ones) doing huge amounts of gh and juice..... how many muscle board members have you seen out of those hundreds of thousands of juiced members have put up a thread saying "Got my pro card!!!!"
http://www.getbig.com/results/mens/usamens.htm
http://www.getbig.com/results/mens/npcnationalsmens.htm
See alot of muscle message board members in the above two webpages showing the pro card winners over the last 20 something years? I dont.
There were some down and dirty anabolic based message boards over the years like Outlaw, Anabolex, Steroid.com and such over the years.....how many members turned pro?
Zero?
You guys have to be kidding me with this stuff. Easy to turn pro? Anyone can become pro size? Are you looking around you? I bet there are 50 guys in your gym right now on the sauce that you wouldnt even know are on the sauce. YOu probably walked by 100 guys in the last 3 months at the mall or wherever there was a major gathering who are doing juice who you never would give a second thought that they maybe even lifted. David Hasselhoff did juice for a number of years back in the day on Baywatch....that look like pro size to you?
I know better. I know you cannot take someone like Brent Barry at 6'5 and someone like Michael Clarke Duncan at 6'5 and make the same bodybuilder out of them......Michael Clarke Duncans genetics will destroy Brent Barry's no matter what Brent Barry does. If you think you can take someone like Jim Carrey or Woody Allen and juice them to the hills and come out with a pro bodybuilder.....theres really nothing else to say i guess
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all you become when you juice is a little bit bigger version of yourself, Michael Jackson on steroids will look like Michael Jackson with 20-25 more muscle if he trains and eats, he won't look like a completely different person.
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all you become when you juice is a little bit bigger version of yourself, Michael Jackson on steroids will look like Michael Jackson with 20-25 more muscle if he trains and eats, he won't look like a completely different person.
Exactly, hormones are only the icing on the cake and give maybe the last 3-5%. That's why pro's don't shrink dramatically when they finish their 250mg test and 200mg deca cycles.
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.
No doubt, "hormones" playing a major role, but genetics play an even greater role there. Lots of guys in gyms all over the world loaded to the gills on various hormones, and they don't look anything like that. Genetics is the reason, with nutrition and training playing secondary roles compared to genetics and drugs at that level.
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Yes, drugs are only a small part of the equation.
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EXCELLENT POINT ..
Not really. You know has pro level genetics because he looks like that. All the juice to want to do with average genetics, and you will not look like that. Thus why 99% of the guys in your gym and mine doing drugs don't look like that. If that's all it took, every gym would have at least one guy who looks like him. I have average genetics, and no amount of AAS, GH, etc, etc is going to have me on an IFBB pro stage. Anyone who thinks its all done with drugs, don't know drugs or the genetically gifted who use them. Some need to rely on drugs more than others (and you can usually tell who is who) but average genetics and drugs will get you winning your class at some state/regional level show, and maybe a top 10 finish in your class at the national level. Beyond that, if you don't have the genes for it, an Anadrol enema will not get you there. Take my word on that.
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my initial post ws meant to admireand amaze at what hormones can do ...to phil heath at least ...
I never implied that he is all drugs ...
and doggcrap : if you are implying that in the first pic Heath was a nattie : you either are dumb or are lieing through your teeth ..and I think the second option is better ;)
and EVERYONE knows that prince was megadosing even as an amateur ...stop bullshitting PLEASE .
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and EVERYONE knows that prince was megadosing even as an amateur ...stop bullshitting PLEASE .
It was all Anabolic Mega Packs and MetRX! Thought everyone knew that.... ;D
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It was all Anabolic Mega Packs and MetRX! Thought everyone knew that.... ;D
right :D
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phil heath didnt start training with the goal of having a nice body. phil heath started training KNOWING FULL WELL that he wanted to become the worlds best bodybuilder.
these hundreds of thousands of guys who arent massive.. these guys are using the cycles you say the pros are using.. all these gym rats on steroids are cycling 500mg, maybe 750mg per week, time on = time off,... eating controlled calorie diets..training like pussys...
nobody made the argument that staggered cycles of low doses will turn anyone into a beast.
but anyone who is using steroids in an attempt to become the worlds best bodybuilder, using mega doses year round and trianing like a beast and eating everyuthing in sight... anybody who does that is going to become massivee.
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Are you kidding me with this?
Phil Heath won his first 2 shows on nothing against guys who were loaded to the hilt trying to stand up there next to him (this is known).....any of you guys look like Heath in the before shot clean? Thats genetics!!! If you cant tell the difference in the 2 pictures I have no idea what to say to you.
Tom Prince was freaking huge as an amateur...I interviewed him back then in the 90's and asked him what he did off the record....he said "wait a second Ill fax it over to you what i did for the nats".....30 secs later he faxed it over.....he was off for most of the year pre procard and then did dosages you would see a middleweight competitor use nowadays for a local show.
You guys keep using Tom Prince as the key to your argument....what do you expect a guy on kidney dialysis to look like? JACKED? Hmmm let me think....try to hold onto a bunch of muscle for the Getbig crew and die or atrophy down to nothing as the doctors have told him to so he can live a somewhat normal (as healthy as he can) life? Touch choice there...what should he do? What would you guys do? Die so the guys at getbig say "well at least he died in his 30's looking big, thats all that matters, not his wife and family"
I dont know if you guys are in a bubble or what....but one million people have admitted to using steroids in the USA...thats one out of every 300 people.....lets cut the elderly, children and women out of the picture and what are we down to.....1 out of every 75 guys? How many monstrously huge people do you see walking around?!?! A million? Not even close.
How many muscle boards are there? 15 big ones....all with at least 30 thousand members some with upwards toward 100 thousand members, many been around for 10 years or so......a huge amount of those members on those boards (especially the anabolic based ones) doing huge amounts of gh and juice..... how many muscle board members have you seen out of those hundreds of thousands of juiced members have put up a thread saying "Got my pro card!!!!"
http://www.getbig.com/results/mens/usamens.htm
http://www.getbig.com/results/mens/npcnationalsmens.htm
See alot of muscle message board members in the above two webpages showing the pro card winners over the last 20 something years? I dont.
There were some down and dirty anabolic based message boards over the years like Outlaw, Anabolex, Steroid.com and such over the years.....how many members turned pro?
Zero?
You guys have to be kidding me with this stuff. Easy to turn pro? Anyone can become pro size? Are you looking around you? I bet there are 50 guys in your gym right now on the sauce that you wouldnt even know are on the sauce. YOu probably walked by 100 guys in the last 3 months at the mall or wherever there was a major gathering who are doing juice who you never would give a second thought that they maybe even lifted. David Hasselhoff did juice for a number of years back in the day on Baywatch....that look like pro size to you?
I know better. I know you cannot take someone like Brent Barry at 6'5 and someone like Michael Clarke Duncan at 6'5 and make the same bodybuilder out of them......Michael Clarke Duncans genetics will destroy Brent Barry's no matter what Brent Barry does. If you think you can take someone like Jim Carrey or Woody Allen and juice them to the hills and come out with a pro bodybuilder.....theres really nothing else to say i guess
i don't know where to start on this.
first hahahahahahahahahahahaha ha if you are really claiming that Phil heath is 'natural there' ::) - yes 'the gift' must be right if you think that - god must have given him genetics of a myostatin deficient belgian blue bull. ::)
no one on this thread has claimed genetics are not needed to be an elite (top 5) level bodybuilder.
we have all agreed that muscle separation, shape, insertions, joints, bone structure, height,predisposition to certain sides etc are all controlled by genetics - and these things are what separate say Ronnie Coleman or Dennis James from kamali, or lee priest.
however there is zero evidence of genetic non responders to gear when it comes to increasing muscle mass - when on legit gear everyone grows.
Even in puberty with no change in activity the average male put on 30+lbs due to the increase in testosterone. Some have naturally higher levels ands grow more, but you get the picture.
If someone doesn't grow they are doing one or more things wrong - poor nutrition/calories and poor workouts most likely, as they might not grow a Ronnie Coleman level physique, but with lots of real gear and good food they will grow big.
the countless bodybuilders all over the net you speak of that are not monsters, how many are using legit human grade gear? how many are dedicated enough top take in a minimum 2g of protein per lb of bodyweight, or eat a minimum of 2000cal extra a day to grow consistently over months and years - how many use correct pct to keep their gains? how many really keep track of everything they eat, and know with certainty that they are doing it right, know for certain the have legit gear, know for certain that they are working out hard enough in the gym/or too hard in the gym? or know how to keep the off season mass when they start dieting?
more than likely these guys you speak of do a cycle with real gear, and grow a little then mess up pct, or mess up on calories, or half ass the gym, or do everything right, but mess up on diet while off gear by reducing protein intake back to pre gear levels - or a combination, or fake gear etc, or injuries struck, etc, but you get the picture. This is all over years too, so they may gain quite a lot, but do not have the dedication or knowledge to maintain it.
hell even with the knowledge - how many average Joes on the street are not obese? how many have normal range body fat ? people know not to eat so much junk, and to eat healthy, lower calories etc but obesity is still rife. It takes dedication and will power to achieve - the same applies to bodybuilding, not just in terms of diet, but workouts, and gear intake too
even with the determination and will power bodybuilding is all about the secrets, its all about drugs in different combinations to produce minimum sides/ maximum gains, its all about the correct ratio of macro nutrients, its about linking it all together with proper workouts in the gym, and rest when not at the gym.
if bodybuilders got everything right, they would grow maximally, and hold onto that mass maximally too - just like heath has - this is the difference not genetics.
hell Mr genetics himself ' Ronnie Coleman' was already a Pro bodybuilder who put on 50 + lbs of muscle by working with chad - now are you telling me he didn't have genetics before working with chad ? or that he was using fake gear before working with chad or under dosing? etc - of course not, chad just taught him to to combine gear and use nutrition correctly - look at the difference 8)
there are examples everywhere of this hell even David henry (a midget ;D j/k) has grown a massive amount from when he first got his pro card - and stayed injury free which is even more impressive,considering his crazy far too heavy workouts. Didn't you hammer home to him the importance of protein protein protein to him? clearly it works :)
now the guys in the 60's and 70's who were on the Olympia stage, didn't have access to igf-1 or gh, or insulin, t3, clen etc - yet they all grew pretty well - has the genetic gene pool dried up ? or was this simply a real golden age of genetic marvels ? of course not. the gear was real, the workouts were long and hard, and the meat was plentiful 8)
IMO the biggest problem stopping the countless Joe bodybuilder out in the net is either fake/underdosed gear or poor nutrition, or lack of discipline/patience. As the study below shows - people on testosterone sitting watching TV grow more than a natural that works out. :o
it is impossible for someone not to grow big if they workout, eat right and take enough gear - rinse repeat over time = bigger and better.
The effects of supraphysiologic doses of testosterone on muscle size and strength in normal men.Bhasin S, Storer TW, Berman N, Callegari C, Clevenger B, Phillips J, Bunnell TJ, Tricker R, Shirazi A, Casaburi R.
Department of Medicine, Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, Los Angeles, CA 90059, USA.
BACKGROUND: Athletes often take androgenic steroids in an attempt to increase their strength. The efficacy of these substances for this purpose is unsubstantiated, however. METHODS: We randomly assigned 43 normal men to one of four groups: placebo with no exercise; testosterone with no exercise; placebo plus exercise; and testosterone plus exercise. The men received injections of 600 mg of testosterone enanthate or placebo weekly for 10 weeks. The men in the exercise groups performed standardized weight-lifting exercises three times weekly. Before and after the treatment period, fat-free mass was determined by underwater weighing, muscle size was measured by magnetic resonance imaging, and the strength of the arms and legs was assessed by bench-press and squatting exercises, respectively. RESULTS: Among the men in the no-exercise groups, those given testosterone had greater increases than those given placebo in muscle size in their arms (mean [+/-SE] change in triceps area, 424 +/- 104 vs. -81 +/- 109 square millimeters; P < 0.05) and legs (change in quadriceps area, 607 +/- 123 vs. -131 +/- 111 square millimeters; P < 0.05) and greater increases in strength in the bench-press (9 +/- 4 vs. -1 +/- 1 kg, P < 0.05) and squatting exercises (16 +/- 4 vs. 3 +/- 1 kg, P < 0.05). The men assigned to testosterone and exercise had greater increases in fat-free mass (6.1 +/- 0.6 kg) and muscle size (triceps area, 501 +/- 104 square millimeters; quadriceps area, 1174 +/- 91 square millimeters) than those assigned to either no-exercise group, and greater increases in muscle strength (bench-press strength, 22 +/- 2 kg; squatting-exercise capacity, 38 +/- 4 kg) than either no-exercise group. Neither mood nor behavior was altered in any group. CONCLUSIONS: Supraphysiologic doses of testosterone, especially when combined with strength training, increase fat-free mass and muscle size and strength in normal men.
Phil heath has managed everything in such a short period of time, not because he's a genetic marvel, but because he has been chosen as the new face of bodybuilding, has been told the 'secrets', and has the determination to follow those secrets exactly nothing more.
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meltdown of biblical proportions.
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Exactly, hormones are only the icing on the cake and give maybe the last 3-5%. That's why pro's don't shrink dramatically when they finish their 250mg test and 200mg deca cycles.
;D ;D
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Phil heath has managed everything in such a short period of time, not because he's a genetic marvel, but because he has been chosen as the new face of bodybuilding, has been told the 'secrets', and has the determination to follow those secrets exactly nothing more.
Funny, the "secrets." Funny stuff. Clueless, but funny. ::)
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if phil's genetics were so super...then they would have gotten him to the nba instead of a bbing stage. bbers are ill walking chemical experiments. well...i'll make the exception for "lite weight...baby" who is the true freak among freaks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EpattQUwyM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EpattQUwyM)
i'm sorry but bbing is f##ked w/this guy past his prime. the phil narrow and dex midget standards are BS.
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if phil's genetics were so super...then they would have gotten him to the nba instead of a bbing stage.
Translated, you don't know anything about genetics. A person with great genetics to be a marathon runner does not by default then have great genetics as a bber, and so on.
bbers are ill walking chemical experiments.
Very true, and 99% of them don't look anything like a pro level bber. I know a thing or two about the drugs pro bbers use....
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phil hooked up with jay when he was still an amateur. that answers anyone's question. i think anyone can be a pro bber. tom prince and some of these other jacks dont have superior genetics. they did the extremes which it takes to become a bber. 80% of the guys i've crossed over the yrs had the goods but didnt want to mess with NEEDLES or the pharmacy kits. of course there are pure athletes like phil (DU), ronnie (Grambling LB), shawn (a good enough RB to get a lower D1 SS in his day). this super genetics s##t and bbing is a complete joke.
Haha, you've obviously never seen pics of guys like Heiko Kalbach or Sergei Shel(however you spell it)stov. Massive guys, obviously hitting the juice as hard as they can, but just not put together in the way Flex or Heath are. I mean Christ look at Greg Kovacs!!!!! He's taken more than anyone!
Like someone said earlier, if it was just the amount of steroids you take, all the juiced-to-the-gills amatures at all these national shows would just up the dosage and become pro. And something about their bitch tits tells me a lot of them are already on as much as their body can reasonably process right now.
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Heath go great genetics.
Just look at me and Sevastase we juice and look about equal,
he look harder and smaller, but I am heavier and bigger than him.
We look decent,
but many non juicers look better than me and Sevastase.
Like many said, it is all about the frame and the receptors.
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Vince, you look like complete dogshit.....period :-X No amount of any ergogenic aid will ever help you look like anything other than complete shit
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Heath go great genetics.
Just look at me and Sevastase we juice and look about equal,
he look harder and smaller, but I am heavier and bigger than him.
We look decent,
but many non juicers look better than me and Sevastase.
Like many said, it is all about the frame and the receptors.
IF sev just did dbol and thats it then he never tapped his potential on drugs,i think if he did test,winny,deca,and dbol then we would see a big difference.a few full cycles and u would not even recognize him.
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Funny, the "secrets." Funny stuff. Clueless, but funny. ::)
yes, a bit like your physique 'big' will.
but it's ok -keep blaming your genetics ::)
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IF sev just did dbol and thats it then he never tapped his potential on drugs,i think if he did test,winny,deca,and dbol then we would see a big difference.a few full cycles and u would not even recognize him.
seva himself admitted that his diet was shit while he was on 100mg dbol a day. i believe a bar of chocolate was his post workout meal ::)
as for genetics ::) why is it that you rarely get a powerlifter thats built like a pencil ?
case in point ryan kennelly - here he is dwarfing cutler. now i guarentee kennelly isn't on a fraction of the drugs jay is on - but eats and works out like a beast.
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i don't know where to start on this.
first hahahahahahahahahahahaha ha if you are really claiming that Phil heath is 'natural there' ::) - yes 'the gift' must be right if you think that - god must have given him genetics of a myostatin deficient belgian blue bull. ::)
no one on this thread has claimed genetics are not needed to be an elite (top 5) level bodybuilder.
we have all agreed that muscle separation, shape, insertions, joints, bone structure, height,predisposition to certain sides etc are all controlled by genetics - and these things are what separate say Ronnie Coleman or Dennis James from kamali, or lee priest.
however there is zero evidence of genetic non responders to gear when it comes to increasing muscle mass - when on legit gear everyone grows.
Even in puberty with no change in activity the average male put on 30+lbs due to the increase in testosterone. Some have naturally higher levels ands grow more, but you get the picture.
If someone doesn't grow they are doing one or more things wrong - poor nutrition/calories and poor workouts most likely, as they might not grow a Ronnie Coleman level physique, but with lots of real gear and good food they will grow big.
the countless bodybuilders all over the net you speak of that are not monsters, how many are using legit human grade gear? how many are dedicated enough top take in a minimum 2g of protein per lb of bodyweight, or eat a minimum of 2000cal extra a day to grow consistently over months and years - how many use correct pct to keep their gains? how many really keep track of everything they eat, and know with certainty that they are doing it right, know for certain the have legit gear, know for certain that they are working out hard enough in the gym/or too hard in the gym? or know how to keep the off season mass when they start dieting?
more than likely these guys you speak of do a cycle with real gear, and grow a little then mess up pct, or mess up on calories, or half ass the gym, or do everything right, but mess up on diet while off gear by reducing protein intake back to pre gear levels - or a combination, or fake gear etc, or injuries struck, etc, but you get the picture. This is all over years too, so they may gain quite a lot, but do not have the dedication or knowledge to maintain it.
hell even with the knowledge - how many average Joes on the street are not obese? how many have normal range body fat ? people know not to eat so much junk, and to eat healthy, lower calories etc but obesity is still rife. It takes dedication and will power to achieve - the same applies to bodybuilding, not just in terms of diet, but workouts, and gear intake too
even with the determination and will power bodybuilding is all about the secrets, its all about drugs in different combinations to produce minimum sides/ maximum gains, its all about the correct ratio of macro nutrients, its about linking it all together with proper workouts in the gym, and rest when not at the gym.
if bodybuilders got everything right, they would grow maximally, and hold onto that mass maximally too - just like heath has - this is the difference not genetics.
hell Mr genetics himself ' Ronnie Coleman' was already a Pro bodybuilder who put on 50 + lbs of muscle by working with chad - now are you telling me he didn't have genetics before working with chad ? or that he was using fake gear before working with chad or under dosing? etc - of course not, chad just taught him to to combine gear and use nutrition correctly - look at the difference 8)
there are examples everywhere of this hell even David henry (a midget ;D j/k) has grown a massive amount from when he first got his pro card - and stayed injury free which is even more impressive,considering his crazy far too heavy workouts. Didn't you hammer home to him the importance of protein protein protein to him? clearly it works :)
now the guys in the 60's and 70's who were on the Olympia stage, didn't have access to igf-1 or gh, or insulin, t3, clen etc - yet they all grew pretty well - has the genetic gene pool dried up ? or was this simply a real golden age of genetic marvels ? of course not. the gear was real, the workouts were long and hard, and the meat was plentiful 8)
IMO the biggest problem stopping the countless Joe bodybuilder out in the net is either fake/underdosed gear or poor nutrition, or lack of discipline/patience. As the study below shows - people on testosterone sitting watching TV grow more than a natural that works out. :o
it is impossible for someone not to grow big if they workout, eat right and take enough gear - rinse repeat over time = bigger and better.
The effects of supraphysiologic doses of testosterone on muscle size and strength in normal men.Bhasin S, Storer TW, Berman N, Callegari C, Clevenger B, Phillips J, Bunnell TJ, Tricker R, Shirazi A, Casaburi R.
Department of Medicine, Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, Los Angeles, CA 90059, USA.
BACKGROUND: Athletes often take androgenic steroids in an attempt to increase their strength. The efficacy of these substances for this purpose is unsubstantiated, however. METHODS: We randomly assigned 43 normal men to one of four groups: placebo with no exercise; testosterone with no exercise; placebo plus exercise; and testosterone plus exercise. The men received injections of 600 mg of testosterone enanthate or placebo weekly for 10 weeks. The men in the exercise groups performed standardized weight-lifting exercises three times weekly. Before and after the treatment period, fat-free mass was determined by underwater weighing, muscle size was measured by magnetic resonance imaging, and the strength of the arms and legs was assessed by bench-press and squatting exercises, respectively. RESULTS: Among the men in the no-exercise groups, those given testosterone had greater increases than those given placebo in muscle size in their arms (mean [+/-SE] change in triceps area, 424 +/- 104 vs. -81 +/- 109 square millimeters; P < 0.05) and legs (change in quadriceps area, 607 +/- 123 vs. -131 +/- 111 square millimeters; P < 0.05) and greater increases in strength in the bench-press (9 +/- 4 vs. -1 +/- 1 kg, P < 0.05) and squatting exercises (16 +/- 4 vs. 3 +/- 1 kg, P < 0.05). The men assigned to testosterone and exercise had greater increases in fat-free mass (6.1 +/- 0.6 kg) and muscle size (triceps area, 501 +/- 104 square millimeters; quadriceps area, 1174 +/- 91 square millimeters) than those assigned to either no-exercise group, and greater increases in muscle strength (bench-press strength, 22 +/- 2 kg; squatting-exercise capacity, 38 +/- 4 kg) than either no-exercise group. Neither mood nor behavior was altered in any group. CONCLUSIONS: Supraphysiologic doses of testosterone, especially when combined with strength training, increase fat-free mass and muscle size and strength in normal men.
Phil heath has managed everything in such a short period of time, not because he's a genetic marvel, but because he has been chosen as the new face of bodybuilding, has been told the 'secrets', and has the determination to follow those secrets exactly nothing more.
Im going to go thru your stuff point by point here.
Three guys on a muscle board named Fat Panda, Sevaste and Tbombz who have no idea of the particulars, dont know the guy, and are just making stuff up to fit their argument say Phil Heath was loaded when he was starting out. His actual friend, confidante and trainer who was giving him advice those first couple shows who is a good friend of mine says matter of factly he was doing nothing......hmmm who should we believe.....3 guys from the net who wouldnt have a clue except for their own opinion as it is typed out on their computer or the ACTUAL guy who actually was giving him advice to come into those first 2 shows. He was 192 pounds in his first show. He gets up to 270 offseason and 232-240 pounds for shows now....its really not that hard of an equation to think out.
The middle part of your argument....I only have a couple things to say. Some of you guys need to get off this board....your over here in a very small corner of the bodybuilding world on a very non hardcore board. There are hundreds if not thousands of guys on really hardcore boards on the net who live and die this stuff....and they are on year round, high doses, training like there is no tommorow and eating like its their last meal and they arent even close to pro size and never will be. And you know why you guys dont know about them and never heard of them.....2 reasons....1)you stay in your little bubble on this board and 2) they arent good enough bodybuilders for you EVER to hear about them, no matter what they do, no matter what they take.
What..... you dont think all these pro bodybuilders had friends growing up? You dont think those friends were using the same drugs and same amounts those pro bodybuilders were? You dont think some of those friends wanted that elusive glory of also being a pro bodybuilder? What happened to those friends? They didnt make it! Even with all that sauce and all the eating and training their genetics wouldnt allow them to become something that resembles a pro bodybuilder.
The secrets you talk about......what secrets? Do you really think there is a secret Undecyclate 57 out of Eastern bulgaria all the pro's have access to? You want your secret? A Testosterone ester and an anabolic or two and gh if someone can afford it. Theres your secret....well that book is closed. The only secret is if someone decides to abuse themselves or not with polypharmacy. There is no secret drug or method that the pro's get handed as soon as they win their medal at the Nats or USA's......"Here Mr Jones here is your trophy for the overall, your pro card and pssssst here is the secret stack, dont tell anyone"
Your phil heath, Ronnie coleman, Dave Henry argument....im not getting it. They all have great genetics. Ronnie turned pro clean at the Team Universe at 224 or so.....are there any other 5'10" guys in this forum or any forum weighing in at 224 shredded to the bone clean and getting their pro card? And you dont think thats great genetics? With those insane genetics, which include obviously a response way above and beyond anyone else out there ergo wise he was later able to compete at 302 onstage at the Russian Grand Prix. I would say that is great genetics and response if it was me......one in a million genetics.
Your "supraphysiologic doses of testosterone" study.....great, awesome....what the heck does that have to do with proving that everyone that takes steroids like the pro's can be a pro or pro size? Anyone who takes creatine and a good protein abundant diet will pretty much be a bigger better version of themselves also. Anyone who takes steroids is going to get bigger also. Pro size? Not a chance in hell. The problem is you gots guys on this thread who took their first steroid cycle, gained 25lbs and think its going to keep happening up until their pro card. Heres a wakeup call....its not going to continue like that. Just like you have newbie bodybuilder gains when you started lifting, you just got newbie steroid gains....and now every true additional pound becomes a struggle.
The bottom line is if you guys ever got off this board and actually looked around you would see there are hundreds of thousands of crazy daredevils out there killing themselves for a dream on other boards. Guys using much more than pro bodybuilders to try to become one and they arent even in the top 5 best bodybuilders in their own gym. You guys are making opinions on observations....observat ions you can see........... huge bodybuilders......but what you cant see is the guy who is taking that or more than a huge bodybuilder who looks like absolute crap.....because you dont notice that guy and he is too damn embarrassed to tell anyone he is using abusive dosages to look like 220lbs of crap with 17 inch arms.....and does he look like a pro bodybuilder?.......nope and he never will. Will Brink has been around the block for 20 years, Ive been around the block for 20 years....what are we just making this stuff up? What reason other than its the truth would we be stating that we know many people juiced to the hills who dont have close to pro bodybuilding size and never will? Id love to sit here and say it works for everyone and they end up looking like Jay Cutler.....it doesnt.
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Dante you are truly delusional. ::) ::)
Phil heath is obviously juiced to the gills in that shot.
Coleman turned pro before ever touching steroids? hahahaha oh brother............
Fucking liar, go defend that castlebarry guy or whatever his name is.
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Im going to go thru your stuff point by point here.
Three guys on a muscle board named Fat Panda, Sevaste and Tbombz who have no idea of the particulars, dont know the guy, and are just making stuff up to fit their argument say Phil Heath was loaded when he was starting out. His actual friend, confidante and trainer who was giving him advice those first couple shows who is a good friend of mine says matter of factly he was on doing nothing......hmmm who should we believe.....3 guys from the net who wouldnt have a clue except for their own opinion as it is typed out on their computer or the ACTUAL guy who actually was giving him advice to come into those first 2 shows. Case closed.
The middle part of your argument....I only have a couple things to say. Some of you guys need to get off this board....your over here in a very small corner of the bodybuilding world on a very non hardcore board. There are hundreds if not thousands of guys on really hardcore boards on the net who live and die this stuff....and they are on year round, high doses, training like there is no tommorow and eating like its their last meal and they arent even close to pro size and never will be. And you know why you guys dont know about them and never heard of them.....2 reasons....1)you stay in your little bubble on this board and 2) they arent good enough bodybuilders for you EVER to hear about them, no matter what they do, no matter what they take.
What you dont think all these pro bodybuilders had friends growing up? You dont think those friends were using the same drugs and same amounts those pro bodybuilders were? You dont think some of those friends wanted that elusive glory of a pro bodybuilder? What happened to those friends? They didnt make it! Even with all that sauce and all the eating and training their genetics wouldnt allow them to become something that resembles a pro bodybuilder.
The secrets you talk about......what secrets? Do you really think there is a secret Undecyclate 57 out of Eastern bulgaria all the pro's have access to? You want your secret? A Testosterone ester and an anabolic or two and gh if someone can afford it. Theres your secret....well that book is closed. The only secret is if someone decides to abuse themselves or not. There is no secret drug or method that the pro's get handed as soon as they win their medal at the Nats or USA's......"Here Mr Jones here is your trophy for the overall, your pro card and pssssst here is the secret stack, dont tell anyone"
Your phil heath, Ronnie coleman, Dave Henry argument....im not getting it. They all have great genetics. Ronnie turned pro clean at the Team Universe at 224 or so.....are there any other 5'10" guys in this forum or any forum weighing in at 224 shredded to the bone clean and getting their pro card? And you dont think thats great genetics? With those insane genetics, which include obviously a response way above and beyond anyone else out there ergo wise he was later able to compete at 302 onstage at the Russian Grand Prix. I would say that is great genetics and response if it was me......one in a million
Your "supraphysiologic doses of testosterone" study.....great, awesome....what the heck does that have to do with proving that everyone that takes steroids like the pro's can be a pro or pro size? Anyone who takes creatine and a good protein abundant diet will pretty much be a bigger better version of themselves also. Anyone who takes steroids is going to get bigger also. The problem is you gots guys on this thread who took their first steroid cycle, gained 25lbs and think its going to keep happening up until their pro card. Heres a wakeup call....its not going to continue like that. Just like you got newbie bodybuilder gains when you started lifting, you just got newbie steroid gains....and now every true additional pound becomes a struggle.
The bottom line is if you guys ever got off this board and actually looked around you would see there are hundreds of thousands of crazy daredevils out there killing themselves for a dream on other boards. Guys using much more than pro bodybuilders to try to become one and they arent even in the top 5 best bodybuilders in their own gym. You guys are making opinions on observations....observat ions you can see........... huge bodybuilders......but what you cant see is the guy who is taking that or more than a huge bodybuilder who looks like absolute crap.....because you dont notice that guy and he is too damn embarrassed to tell anyone he is using abusive dosages to look like 220lbs of crap with 17 inch arms.....and does he look like a pro bodybuilder?.......nope and he never will. Will Brink has been around the block for 20 years, Ive been around the block for 20 years....what are we just making this stuff up? What reason other than its the truth would we be stating that we know many people juiced to the hills who dont have close to pro bodybuilding size and never will? Id love to sit here and say it works for everyone and they end up looking like Jay Cutler.....it doesnt.
oh the old, i know the guy who trained phil ::)
i've heard it all before, and yes i'm sure the guy is going to tell you what phil takes - he has paid for that info, or learned it himself through years of experimentation, and he is going to just tell you, a guy attempting to become a guru himself ::)
yes, i have spoken to 5 pro's, and they all swore blind they were natural ::) in fact every single pro on the mr o stage is natural didn't you know.
these hardcore bodybuilders you speak of - if these hardcore bodybuilders were lifting and eating like there was no tommorow, they would be getting bigger - especially on gear - this is a scientific fact.
take any person off the street and over feed him without even working out and 1/3rd of the mass will be muscle - this is backed by science.
every study done on gear shows ALL participants respond the same in terms of muscle mass gains, and have no statistically differences - why ? where are these genetic non responders or super responders ::)
they do not exist because genetics is a bullshit excuse for people who have not been consistent enough with workouts, diet, and gear.
if they have been consistent then they are taking fake or underdosed gear - simple.
people like yourself who have never achieved a great physique, always blame genetics - but the simple fact dante is you ate too much junk food to get ripped, you always had some excuse - every single comp you were gettting into shape for always ended up the same - because you were not diceplined enough.
no there is no secret Undecyclate 57 ::) but there are secrets in how to stack the products we do have for maximul growth or maintenance during fat loss, there are secrets in getting rid of water, while looking full, there are secrets in how to get that grainy look, there are secrets in how to diet for maximum fat loss, minimum muscle maintenance - all of which are effected by different gear combinations.
why do pro's go to chad, milos, joe mcneil, etc, if there are no secrets? whats the point if its all about the genetics ?
ronnie coleman workout out like a monster and ate like a monster long before he ever met chad - he was a big guy funnily enough. As soon as he started bodybuilding he started taking gear ( he admits this in his first video) and grew bigger - he was not natural when he won the team universe. ::) - then he hooked up with chad, learned a few of the secrets, took a shit load of hormones, and and grew up to his 300lb self.
i believe kamali and johnny jackson are quoted as saying things like chad wanted me to take insane amounts of drugs, etc - ronnie did it regardless, and became the greatest bodyuilder ever.
you are a clown, you claim we live in a goldfish bowl here, and talk about things we know nothing about - then you just make shit up about phil heath and ronnie coleman ::) talk about hypocrite, not only that but you claim we need to get to there web sites with real hardcore types, while you post on here within 5 mins everytime you are mentioned - you are deluded.
you are clearly bitter that you never made it, you never achieved the body of your dreams, not because you didn't have proper gear, or correct nutritional knowledge - but because you were simply not dedicated enough.
but instead of admitting you have a weak will and lack determination, you choose to taking the easy way out by blaming genetics - pathetic.
perhaps these 'poor genetic' types should try eating more, lifting heavier, and taking real gear, or taking more real gear while eating more, and lifting heavier -they will be surprised by the results.
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There is always only one person who knows if someone is natural or not. Himself. Not his friends, not his training partners, not his family. Nobody will convince me of the natural status of a person, just because he is close to him. People lie.
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I didnt make pro level because I am a realist and not living in a pipe dream and I do not have the genetics to go to that level, no matter what I do/did......and neither does 99% of every guy on muscle message boards out there.
So with your long diatribe said.....and since you believe that anyone can become a pro bodybuilder with enough drugs........I invite you to show everyone on this board including me that you can back up your statements and lets all judge whether you have attained pro size with pictures to show that fact. This is where you backtrack and say "well i dont use those levels of drugs".....no biggee so lets see if the physique you have right now would translate in a pro bodybuilder quality physique with a boatload of drugs.....
The floor is yours. There shouldnt be any hesitation and this shouldnt be that hard.....you lift hard, eat good and are highly dedicated right? Then we should see a pretty incredible physique and we can all imagine another 30lbs of muscle on it.
Go ahead.......
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oh man this is taking way too long....dont tell me you are writing up another 8 paragraph post full of tangents and segue's.
Prove your highly charged opinions to me with visual proof of your own highly dedicated, training hard, eating right....pro quality physique.
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I didnt make pro level because I am a realist and not living in a pipe dream and I do not have the genetics to go to that level, no matter what I do/did......and neither does 99% of every guy on muscle message boards out there.
So with your long diatribe said.....and since you believe that anyone can become a pro bodybuilder with enough drugs........I invite you to show everyone on this board including me that you can back up your statements and lets all judge whether you have attained pro size with pictures to show that fact. This is where you backtrack and say "well i dont use those levels of drugs".....no biggee so lets see if the physique you have right now would translate in a pro bodybuilder quality physique with a boatload of drugs.....
The floor is yours. There shouldnt be any hesitation and this shouldnt be that hard.....you lift hard, eat good and are highly dedicated right? Then we should see a pretty incredible physique and we can all imagine another 30lbs of muscle on it.
Go ahead.......
hahahahaha more pathetic deflections - please re-read this thread and where i said anyone can become a pro with enough drugs ??? bodybuilding is a subjective sport, many believe yates should never have been mr o or dex - because in their eyes they are not aesthetic enough or have enough mass etc
i believe anyone can achieve the muscle mass of a pro, and get to 3-4% bf - maybe not ronnie coleman or markus rhul size - the problem that seperated pro's from amatuers becomes natural shape, seperation cuts etc.
here i am as a natural:
not on 1g test a week constantly like you claimed was a minimum for a bodybuilders in your cycle for pennies thread many years ago ::)
amazing what eating and lifting heavy weights will do ::)
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oh man this is taking way too long....dont tell me you are writing up another 8 paragraph post full of tangents and segue's.
Prove your highly charged opinions to me with visual proof of your own highly dedicated, training hard, eating right....pro quality physique.
;)
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oh man this is taking way too long....dont tell me you are writing up another 8 paragraph post full of tangents and segue's.
Prove your highly charged opinions to me with visual proof of your own highly dedicated, training hard, eating right....pro quality physique.
whats wrong dante ? you wondering why on getbig people arn't falling over themselves to kiss your ass and tell you you look great, and you're right its all genetics.
you have been sufing the wave of bottom feeding doggcrapp worshipers for too long - maybe if you were on here getting told you really look like shit and need to diet more you would look a whole ot beter today.
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I guess im at a loss for words.....I was expecting something else and instead I got a guy in a 3 peice suit giving the thumbs up.
Its kind of like proving the sky is blue by saying "See I can jump over that cardboard box"
Since Im late for work.....and Ive gotten to the point that "why am i arguing this stuff on this board?"....Im going to say this "you are right and I am wrong....you win"
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I guess im at a loss for words.....I was expecting something else and instead I got a guy in a 3 peice suit giving the thumbs up.
Its kind of like proving the sky is blue by saying "See I can jump over that cardboard box"
Since Im late for work.....and Ive gotten to the point that "why am i arguing this stuff on this board?"....Im going to say this "you are right and I am wrong....you win"
(http://a.abcnews.com/images/Health/ht_shock_060727_ssv.jpg)
fixed.
its funny actually because when i read your posts i think you must be a monster, and not:
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A good friend of mine years ago was fresh off the boat from Nigera. he was a short guy, probably 5'6". Skinny guy but ripped. Never a touched a weight in his life until he came to the USA. He'd come into the football gym and want to train with us. The fucker was strong as heck for his size. He wanted to join in on the DB presses so he tried the 30's then 40's and got up to 60 before not being able to lift anymore. The guy continued and grew at a decent pace then one of the guys introduced him to steroids. Not much after that he was on the bench lifting the 140's for reps. Stronger than some of these players that have been juicing and lifting for years. He responded like an animal to the juice. He grew like a weed. Looked like a little Aaron Baker. He must have double his weight in a couple of years. One day he got a little too cocky and got in a fight with a few guys. They kicked the shit and hospitalized him. His liver was messed up and the Dr. told him to never touch steroids again and he didn't. He eventually went back to the gym but was about 50% of what he used to be. It was amazing what both good genetics and steroids can do for you. Genetics operate in many ways. One for a lot is how well you can respond to steroids. Some people just respond like crazy where other guys I knew that juiced still barely put on any size and all they got were the acne scars to show for it. One thing I notice about black people is that they don't seem to get acne as bad as white people. Not sure if it just doesn't show that well in lighting but it seems that way.
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Heath go great genetics.
Just look at me and Sevastase we juice and look about equal,
he look harder and smaller, but I am heavier and bigger than him.
We look decent,
but many non juicers look better than me and Sevastase.
Like many said, it is all about the frame and the receptors.
never ever put me in the same category as u retard.
I look clean better than you casn imagine yourself on any drug available ....
seriously ( this is me at 182 lbs ...CLEAN)
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A good friend of mine years ago was fresh off the boat from Nigera. he was a short guy, probably 5'6". Skinny guy but ripped. Never a touched a weight in his life until he came to the USA. He'd come into the football gym and want to train with us. The fucker was strong as heck for his size. He wanted to join in on the DB presses so he tried the 30's then 40's and got up to 60 before not being able to lift anymore. The guy continued and grew at a decent pace then one of the guys introduced him to steroids. Not much after that he was on the bench lifting the 140's for reps. Stronger than some of these players that have been juicing and lifting for years. He responded like an animal to the juice. He grew like a weed. Looked like a little Aaron Baker. He must have double his weight in a couple of years. One day he got a little too cocky and got in a fight with a few guys. They kicked the shit and hospitalized him. His liver was messed up and the Dr. told him to never touch steroids again and he didn't. He eventually went back to the gym but was about 50% of what he used to be. It was amazing what both good genetics and steroids can do for you. Genetics operate in many ways. One for a lot is how well you can respond to steroids. Some people just respond like crazy where other guys I knew that juiced still barely put on any size and all they got were the acne scars to show for it. One thing I notice about black people is that they don't seem to get acne as bad as white people. Not sure if it just doesn't show that well in lighting but it seems that way.
epic "i knew a guy in high school" story. ::)
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whats wrong dante ? you wondering why on getbig people arn't falling over themselves to kiss your ass and tell you you look great, and you're right its all genetics.
you have been sufing the wave of bottom feeding doggcrapp worshipers for too long - maybe if you were on here getting told you really look like shit and need to diet more you would look a whole ot beter today.
Haha panda, way to go pissing off one expert after the other! ;D
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never ever put me in the same category as u retard.
I look clean better than you casn imagine yourself on any drug available ....
seriously ( this is me at 182 lbs ...CLEAN)
pssst. I don't think that's really him. ;)
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epic "i knew a guy in high school" story. ::)
You forgot the words monster and fail
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speaking of genetics
if 5 weeks of dbol takes me from 180 to 217....can you take a wild guess what a couple of solid cycles would do to me?
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pssst. I don't think that's really him. ;)
I figure ..but who did Derek spat on then ?
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speaking of genetics
if 5 weeks of dbol takes me from 180 to 217....can you take a wild guess what a couple of solid cycles would do to me?
THAT WAS MY POINT A FEW POSTS AGO U WOULD BE UNRECOGNIZABLE.
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THAT WAS MY POINT A FEW POSTS AGO U WOULD BE UNRECOGNIZABLE.
people who say such things as panda ...are ussually people who :
never competed
never built any significant mass
never dieted down
no cycle expirience
don't understand genetics/lifting/hormones
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I figure ..but who did Derek spat on then ?
That would be him. ;D
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people who say such things as panda ...are ussually people who :
never competed
never built any significant mass
never dieted down
no cycle expirience
don't understand genetics/lifting/hormones
hence his name ;D
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people who say such things as panda ...are ussually people who :
never competed
never built any significant mass
never dieted down
no cycle expirience
don't understand genetics/lifting/hormones
people who say such things as seva ...are usually people who are stupid.
seva you did respond to gear, your strength went throught the roof - and bodyweight increased - but it looks mostly bloat, perhaps if you increased your protein levels from a bar of chocolate and bowl of soup you would have grown more ::) - you can only blame yourself, not genetics - if you didnlt respond to gear your strength wouldn;t have went up, nor your weight.
seva im 5'11" and in that pic i'm around 290 (WITHOUT EVET TOUCHING GEAR) - trust me i have built a significan amount of mass, i'm not ripped by any means , in fact i have never been below 8-10%. However even after a year of no lifting after torn rotators i blow you away.
i respect people who do get ripped, i know how hard it is to be dedicated enough in your diet, workouts, cardio etc I gave dc a hard time about diet, but i understand where he is coming from, sometimes the cheesecake calls ;D
i have used gear, and am still tinkering and experimenting with various compounds - anavar at 50mg a day just now.
i have tried plenty of others too, dbol, winny, primo, equi, dnp, t3, clen, and i will be testing how i respond to test and deca very shortly.
I have already found what works in the gym, lifting wise, and nutritionally what is needed to grow, and get ripped while keeping muscle.
soon i will be finished with my experiments and see exactly how big and ripped i can become.
however it is very very clear to me from my experience with what i have tired already, i will grow and grow easily. i do not want to reach pro level size, but i will certainly reach a level i am happy with, and know that if a chose it i could achieve hat level of mass.
i understand how it's easy to blame genetics for a lack of discepline, but be under no illusions - it is your/my own lack of discepine or fake gear or poor workouts, or poor nutrition thats the problem.
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Post a picture mothherfuccker and stop yapping .....PLEASE
POST A FUKKIN PICTURE AND SHOW ME YOU BLOW ME AWAY
on a second thought you prolly wish you would blow me .... :-X
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Post a picture mothherfuccker and stop yapping .....PLEASE
POST A FUKKIN PICTURE AND SHOW ME YOU BLOW ME AWAY
on a second thought you prolly wish you would blow me .... :-X
hahahahaha calm down golum
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Sev , you are in good shape but look average in the bodybuilding sense..
Not hating on you , but your genetics are not "superior" so dont see the need for you to drop your pics in every post you make.
What about the time you claimed you hadnt touched gear and you posted pics but it was pointed out that elsewhere you had said you were running winni/primo ...They are hardly "powerful" when compared to tren etc but do you class them as "natural" compounds?
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Sev , you are in good shape but look average in the bodybuilding sense..
Not hating on you , but your genetics are not "superior" so dont see the need for you to drop your pics in every post you make.
What about the time you claimed you hadnt touched gear and you posted pics but it was pointed out that elsewhere you had said you were running winni/primo ...They are hardly "powerful" when compared to tren etc but do you class them as "natural" compounds?
never claimed such ...prove it !
nice try " midsummer's night cream " ::)
fatpanda : POSTA AFUKKIN PICTURE YOU BLOB .HAHAHAHAHHA
HOW EMBARASSING FOR YOUR FAMILY MUST BE
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never claimed such ...prove it !
nice try " midsummer's night cream " ::)
fatpanda : POSTA AFUKKIN PICTURE YOU BLOB .HAHAHAHAHHA
HOW EMBARASSING FOR YOUR FAMILY MUST BE
hahahahaha golum meltsdown again.
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never claimed such ...prove it !
nice try " midsummer's night cream " ::)
fatpanda : POSTA AFUKKIN PICTURE YOU BLOB .HAHAHAHAHHA
HOW EMBARASSING FOR YOUR FAMILY MUST BE
Midsummers night cream??
Oh I get it , its what your "gf" used to use to lube up your asshole before fisting you , correct?
Is that why you are now on getbig 24/7 posting absolute garbage , because she left you for a real man?
Havent you got some goats to milk?
Log off , you dont have the smarts ...hahahaha @ Gollum , the likeness is very uncanny though Sev has him on arms , but only just :D
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hahahahaha golum meltsdown again.
you will never post a pic because it'll kill your little dream you have here going on ...it would bring you to the cruel reality .
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you will never post a pic because it'll kill your little dream you have here going on ...it would bring you to the cruel reality .
are you joking ? you have a pathetic body, you look like an extra from a haunted house
(http://www.svlsrm.org/images/sk-lrg.jpg)
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are you joking ? you have a pathetic body, you look like an extra from a haunted house
(http://www.svlsrm.org/images/sk-lrg.jpg)
why don't you post up your picture and own him then if you look better?
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I'll tell you why ... because he'd become the second overload .. a guy who talks a lot but never lifted anything significantly and never built a decent body ....
Have you ever seen anyone half decent talking soo much shit ? never ...
the biggest jaw flappers are ussually impotent overweight queens such as Fatpanda .
(http://k53.pbase.com/u20/orfeo256/upload/9107074.BoykinParade020.jpg)
even as a teenager fatpanda ashamed his parents ..
(http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee190/RyanWright07/crossdresser.jpg)
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why don't you post up your picture and own him then if you look better?
hahahahahaha i knew it was only a matter if time
like these you mean big stuff ?
i will when you post a clear pic
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I'll tell you why ... because he'd become the second overload .. a guy who talks a lot but never lifted anything significantly and never built a decent body ....
Have you ever seen anyone half decent talking soo much shit ? never ...
the biggest jaw flappers are ussually impotent overweight trannies such as Fatpanda .
look golum you are the white goldrum, you are the laughing stock of getbig, and are a closet homo.
that pic of me is bigger than any of you ever.
hope this helps.
now go and find your precious.
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hahahahahaha i knew it was only a matter if time
like these you mean big stuff ?
i will when you post a clear pic
hahaha, typical pusssy avoiding the issue, the only pics that are me are the last two sweetie, you never answered the question though, sevastase has posted dozens of crystal clear shots, why don't you do the same? you claim you look better than him so it shouldn't be that big of a deal.
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I'll tell you why ... because he'd become the second overload .. a guy who talks a lot but never lifted anything significantly and never built a decent body ....
Have you ever seen anyone half decent talking soo much shit ? never ...
the biggest jaw flappers are ussually impotent overweight queens such as Fatpanda .
even as a teenager fatpanda ashamed his parents ..
seva, why do you have a never ending collection of pics of gay/homosexual/cross dressing/transexuals on your hard drive ::) homo perhaps ?
hahaha, typical pusssy avoiding the issue, the only pics that are me are the last two sweetie, you never answered the question though, sevastase has posted dozens of crystal clear shots, why don't you do the same? you claim you look better than him so it shouldn't be that big of a deal.
why don't you do the same ? hahahaha no thought not.
i have no desire to post half naked pics of me for golum to masterbate over.
you two make quite a team
(http://dearoldhollywood.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/laurel_hardy.jpg)
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lmao..Fatty and Skinny how apt.
(http://dearoldhollywood.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/laurel_hardy.jpg)
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never ever put me in the same category as u retard.
You and me we look like shit compared to most men,
Well I look good, but many look better, people like a
little flab.
I think we would be very close if we had a posedown.
I can pose better with more fluid motions since I competed.
I can sell you some training eq, Sevastase.
Sometimes I just want to run towards you
pull down my pants and underwear jump spread my buttcheaks
and land with my ass on your face, that would feel awesome.
Sevastase, admit you and me we are the same, in everything.
Dumb,ugly but we belive we look good, one of us came out and one
is about to.
-
You and me we look like shit compared to most men,
Well I look good, but many look better, people like a
little flab.
I think we would be very close if we had a posedown.
I can pose better with more fluid motions since I competed.
I can sell you some training eq, Sevastase.
Sometimes I just want to run towards you
pull down my pants and underwear jump spread my buttcheaks
and land with my ass on your face, that would feel awesome.
Sevastase, admit you and me we are the same, in everything.
Dumb,ugly but we belive we look good, one of us came out and one
is about to.
hahahahaha brutal outing of gstbigs biggest vloset homo :o
-
sevatese,
where do Romanian/Eastern European genes stand in comparison to BGG? Middle Eastern? Mediterranean?
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sevatese,
where do Romanian/Eastern European genes stand in comparison to BGG? Middle Eastern? Mediterranean?
hmm ..tuff to say ...but I would say up there up top ...
look at the russians and the czech and the slovaks since bb is more developed over there ..
there are many guys with incredible bb genes who never take up the sport ..
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Wow.
Where oh where did this thread go awry?
:-\ :-\ :-\
-
seva himself admitted that his diet was shit while he was on 100mg dbol a day. i believe a bar of chocolate was his post workout meal ::)
as for genetics ::) why is it that you rarely get a powerlifter thats built like a pencil ?
case in point ryan kennelly - here he is dwarfing cutler. now i guarentee kennelly isn't on a fraction of the drugs jay is on - but eats and works out like a beast.
Really? ::)
-
Hormones + unbelievable genetics = AMAZING !
;)
why use hormones, If you have "unbelievable genetics?
throwing "unbelievable God given genetics" away by getting "aided" from artificial hormones.. why?
So people can point at you on the streets and say "all drugs" or....
for the quest of a cereal cristal bowl ,plastic sword or trophy?
AMAZING !!!!
Ronnie Coleman was right !!!
-
Really? ::)
so you think kennelly takes 1g of test per week+ 1g deca per week + 700 mg dbol per week + insulin +gh + igf-1+t3 + clen + tren + ?+?+?+?
yes i'm sure he does ::)
-
You and me we look like shit compared to most men,
Well I look good, but many look better, people like a
little flab.
I think we would be very close if we had a posedown.
I can pose better with more fluid motions since I competed.
I can sell you some training eq, Sevastase.
Sometimes I just want to run towards you
pull down my pants and underwear jump spread my buttcheaks
and land with my ass on your face, that would feel awesome.
Sevastase, admit you and me we are the same, in everything.
Dumb,ugly but we belive we look good, one of us came out and one
is about to.
omg
-
so you think kennelly takes 1g of test per week+ 1g deca per week + 700 mg dbol per week + insulin +gh + igf-1+t3 + clen + tren + ?+?+?+?
yes i'm sure he does ::)
I guess for a PL he wouldn't need the t3 but shit even track athletes use all the above mentioned products.
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I guess for a PL he wouldn't need the t3 but shit even track athletes use all the above mentioned products.
hahahahahahahahah delete your accout gimmick.
-
You and me we look like shit compared to most men,
Well I look good, but many look better, people like a
little flab.
I think we would be very close if we had a posedown.
I can pose better with more fluid motions since I competed.
I can sell you some training eq, Sevastase.
Sometimes I just want to run towards you
pull down my pants and underwear jump spread my buttcheaks
and land with my ass on your face, that would feel awesome.
Sevastase, admit you and me we are the same, in everything.
Dumb,ugly but we belive we look good, one of us came out and one
is about to.
I think this post is spot on
-
I think this post is spot on
:D
-
:D
You look good mate,for an average guy that works out,beach type body..
What was the best anabolic you tryed for lean quality gains? Tren ?
-
You look good mate,for an average guy that works out,beach type body..
What was the best anabolic you tryed for lean quality gains? Tren ?
I was as much as 223 lbs in contest shape...ytou never seen pics from that period as I lost 10 years worth of pictures ....
what you see nowadays on the boards is me clean or me after some d-bol ( the bigger ones )
this is the reason why I think we are not in the same league ...
-
:D
holy shit seva
that looks awesome, did you ever compete?
-
Sevastease is aroused and enticed, that is why he posts seminaked
pictures of himself in this thread, working himself up
into gay fantasyland.
Sev You whish you could rub your butthole up and down along my leg.
I can make your fantasy come true, fulfill your attentionwhore wet dreams.
I had a posedown at the Olympia with Billygums I am famous
I made more money that night than many of the competitors.
I can help you, I can get sponsors and we can have a posedown at the Olympia
You must put on a show thou.
We can wear thongs and rub our butts against eachother grinding while they
laugh and cheer.
We can start by filming you in your village-the Romanian goes to America
a Borat village departure style.
I can introduce you to some gay swingers, you will drop your pants
and dance like crazy.
After we airhump eachother at the Olympia maybe some g4p guy will approach us
and you will have an incredible adventure, and bring home some dollarbills
to your village and tell your gypsie friends about oiled big men in America.
To show that you are aroused please post some more seminaked pics of
yourself Sevastasae, in any thread on Getbig.
Time to fulfill your dreams Sevstasease be brave take the step.
Shit Sev I think Vince wants to tell you a secret :D
-
holy shit seva
that looks awesome, did you ever compete?
YES ...IN THE PAST ...
that pic is me preppin for mr get big 2 and it's 100 % clean ...182 lbs ...
-
Sevastease is aroused and enticed, that is why he posts seminaked
pictures of himself in this thread, working himself up
into gay fantasyland.
Sev You whish you could rub your butthole up and down along my leg.
I can make your fantasy come true, fulfill your attentionwhore wet dreams.
I had a posedown at the Olympia with Billygums I am famous
I made more money that night than many of the competitors.
I can help you, I can get sponsors and we can have a posedown at the Olympia
You must put on a show thou.
We can wear thongs and rub our butts against eachother grinding while they
laugh and cheer.
We can start by filming you in your village-the Romanian goes to America
a Borat village departure style.
I can introduce you to some gay swingers, you will drop your pants
and dance like crazy.
After we airhump eachother at the Olympia maybe some g4p guy will approach us
and you will have an incredible adventure, and bring home some dollarbills
to your village and tell your gypsie friends about oiled big men in America.
To show that you are aroused please post some more seminaked pics of
yourself Sevastasae, in any thread on Getbig.
Time to fulfill your dreams Sevstasease be brave take the step.
I don't know who you really are but I think your real vocation might be writing fantasy letters for a homo site .
-
hahahahahahahahah delete your accout gimmick.
Is that the best you can come up with you Rush Limbaugh looking turd. :D
-
Sevastease is aroused and enticed, that is why he posts seminaked
pictures of himself in this thread, working himself up
into gay fantasyland.
Sev You whish you could rub your butthole up and down along my leg.
I can make your fantasy come true, fulfill your attentionwhore wet dreams.
I had a posedown at the Olympia with Billygums I am famous
I made more money that night than many of the competitors.
I can help you, I can get sponsors and we can have a posedown at the Olympia
You must put on a show thou.
We can wear thongs and rub our butts against eachother grinding while they
laugh and cheer.
We can start by filming you in your village-the Romanian goes to America
a Borat village departure style.
I can introduce you to some gay swingers, you will drop your pants
and dance like crazy.
After we airhump eachother at the Olympia maybe some g4p guy will approach us
and you will have an incredible adventure, and bring home some dollarbills
to your village and tell your gypsie friends about oiled big men in America.
To show that you are aroused please post some more seminaked pics of
yourself Sevastasae, in any thread on Getbig.
Time to fulfill your dreams Sevstasease be brave take the step.
I thought i heard it all on this site until I read this. This post could win an acadamy award for the most retarded.
-
Is that the best you can come up with you Rush Limbaugh looking turd. :D
yes, i cannot beat the astounding level of intelligence that you clearly possess, especially with ownings like that one ::)
oh brother, how can all these spastics have access to the internet. :-\
-
I thought i heard it all on this site until I read this. This post could win an acadamy award for the most retarded.
I think it's retardedly funny! :D